[1eyedjack]

Wow! I go to work, come home and find a hornet's nest :-)

Couple of comments for now:

I am a great fan of splinters. I do not agree with one comment of Ben's, in that I think that you should stretch to show the most important feature of your hand at the earliest opportunity. 3H shows H support but shows precious little else about the hand. Granted, it is a cheaper bid than 4C and, importantly, is below the level of a serious 3N. However, subsequently to show the C splinter would be more expensive than an immediate 4C, which shows the C splinter and H support in one go. Give East a subminimum xx, AQxxx, Axx, xxx and he can be forgiven for raising 1S-2H-3H to a passive 4H. Perhaps opener should still move.

On balance I approve of West's 4C bid.

The problem from East's perspective is that a Diamond lead at trick 1 up to his Jxx is marked on the auction, in light of which the question hinges on to what extent is 5H likely to be at risk.

Reading all of the posts I think that a LTTC 4D bid by East over the 4C splinter is the best move, so I place the blame with East. I was East :-(
Not playing LTTC I think 5H is a reasonable bid over 4C.

Note that whilst the C:AKQ could have been pulling full weight, especially if opener had D:Axx, on this hand the C:KQ were totally superfluous. Holding xx, AQxxx, Jxx, Axx, I wonder how many would have bid beyond 4H with East's hand (or even LTTC). That tends to suggest that West takes a modicum of blame, but I reckon that would be a really "magic" slam to bid, and I am for now content to miss slams that rely on such perfection in partner's cards. I am not content to miss the slam that we actually held (even though trumps broke 4-0 heh heh)

For the avoidance of doubt, 1S-2H-3H would have been forcing and show extras. Not that that really affects my opinion as to the preference for 4C.

[inquiry]

Well, what I play is probably a bastardization of what Fred recommends.. his treatment is for responder's raises of openers suit after a 2/1... (see his article on 2/1 GF).

His treatment is terrific, with picture jumps, with delayed splinter, and with raise to three level and serious 3NT and LTTC. I use the same principles if opener chooses to raise responders suits, and for the exact same reasons. That is, splinter bid promise the same as responders splinters, leap to four promise the same as responder leaps to four in opener;s suit, and serous 3NT and LTTC still working as well.

This is quite effective. While you think the singleton club is "the most important feature" I beg to differ. This hand has a lot of important features, absolute control of spades, an extra trump in support, a fitting trump honor, excellent control of diamonds, and yes, a singleton in clubs. Bidding 4C expresses, in my opinion, perhaps the extra trump (I would like to think this promise four), but says nothing about the great the spades, and nothing about diamonds. In fact, the way I play, it specifically denies a diamond control.

What would you bid, with say, ♠KQJxx ♥KJxx ♦Qxx ♣x . I don't know about you, but I would bid 4♣. Why, 2♥ already forced to game. This would show four card heart support, singleton club, deny a diamond honor. But if you will bid 4♣ on this hand, how are you to ever describe a hand like the one in this problem with a 4♣. And if you don't bid 4♣ with this hand, what do you bid? 3♥? Surely not, that would express slam interest. 4♥? That might get across the weakness of your hand, but it doesn't allow your partner to judge how well, or how badly his hand fits.. imagine he holds.. Ax AQxxx Axx xxx and Ax AQxxx xxx Axx.. He will never know what to do. But opposite a descriptive leap to 4♣ (four hearts, stiff club, no diamond control), he can basically bid slam on the first and signoff in game on the second.

Now, from the replies in this thread it seems the world probably doesn't bid this way, but you know what? They should.

[Chamaco]

1eyedjack, on Oct 5 2004, 06:26 PM, said:

Wow! I go to work, come home and find a hornet's nest :-)

Couple of comments for now:

I am a great fan of splinters.  I do not agree with one comment of Ben's, in that I think that you should stretch to show the most important feature of your hand at the earliest opportunity. 

-- cut --

On balance I approve of West's 4C bid.


For the avoidance of doubt, 1S-2H-3H would have been forcing and show extras.  Not that that really affects my opinion as to the preference for 4C.

I think that after
1S:2H

if opener splinters to 4C, he should expect that most probably responder has no diamond control (unless he holds the infamous, never occurring "perfect hand"). But even then, his hand is so strong that he should carry on anyways, so the only reason to splinter would be to keep bidding open with a forcing bid, certainly not to describe (you describe when you want pard to take charge, but here the captainship should belong to opener only, responder won't participate except in responding to pard's inquiries).
Therefore the main flaw in the reasoning, in my view, is that, sooner or later, is slam is on, it will be anyway opener who will take charge.

Opener's hand does not need to "describe", it is opener who shall place the contract once he knows of keycards and the trump queen.
The only ones who will take advantage of a descriptive bid by opener, in this case, will be opps, since here it is only useful if RESPONSER describes

I believe opener should simply set trumps ASAP, then ask for keycards and then for the trump Q.
Quite crude, but I think it works, for exploring either small or grand slam.

[EricK]

Ben,

You haven't really answered the question of who is to blame if the partnership are not playing all these fancy gadgets.

Obviously, if a splinter by agreement doesn't show this hand then West is to blame, but if they don't have that agreement then...what?

Playing with a pick-up partner having agreed say 5 card majors, a reasonably strong 2/1, splinters and RKCB what would you bid as West?

Playing with a pick up partner with limited agreements, if your partner splintered would you look for the slam as East?

Eric

[inquiry]

EricK, on Oct 5 2004, 03:03 PM, said:

Ben,

You haven't really answered the question of who is to blame if the partnership are not playing all these fancy gadgets.

Obviously, if a splinter by agreement doesn't show this hand then West is to blame, but if they don't have that agreement then...what?

Playing with a pick-up partner having agreed say 5 card majors, a reasonably strong 2/1, splinters and RKCB what would you bid as West?

Playing with a pick up partner with limited agreements, if your partner splintered would you look for the slam as East?

Eric

If I am playing with a pick up partner, I simply bid 4NT over 2H... they will always respond as if that is RKCB to their suit. WEST has a monster fit hand for hearts, and needs to bid like it. With a pick up partner, 3H and 4H are too risky. And 4C? If random pickup, he might take that as gerber, or lots of clubs....

Now, if I was playing with a pickup partner who I felt would understand 4C as a splinter, I wouldn't bid it.. why tell the opponents? If you bid 4C with a parnter with this hand, you will not trust their 4H signoff anyway.. so why tell the opponents. So, again I would not bid 4C.

BTW... take a look at the concept of 4C as a picture bid by opener... I think as you construct hands, you will find htis very effective.

[inquiry]

To illustrate my point, I used bridgebowser to grab about the first hands that the auction went 1S-2H-4C on.. .see how many you agree with (I think not many)....

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

;

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

[1eyedjack]

You have made a number of points, Ben, and I am more or less converted, but I am not sure which point these hands are supposed to illustrate.

On very few hands do I agree with the 4C rebid. If neither of us agree with the 4C rebid, and yet differ on the bids that we would have made instead, then we might as well discard them from the population. Otherwise they are just white noise. Most of the 4C bids are not splinters, let alone too strong to splinter. This proves that a lot of players make bids that I do not agree with. Do they end in the top spot where I do not? Not especially.

[inquiry]

Here are my comment on how the bidding should have gone... on the hands from above which are at least suitable for a splinter 4♣ bid..... all the other uses of 4♣ will be ignored... :-)

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 1♠ Pass
2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass
4♠ Pass Pass Pass

---

Well, I will show this one.. I guess 4♣ is hyper splinter... I can only asssume 4♠ denys a diamond control and shows spade control. With two diamond and a heart loser, lucky opener can pass.. now no more hands where 4♣ is anything but a splinter.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 1♠ Pass
2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass
4♠ Pass Pass Pass

---

Splinter with a void (instead of limit to singleton) and with great controls in the unbid suit. How is north to evaluate his holding? This is the exact hand where I think splinter is uncalled for.

The bidding should be.. 1S-2H; 3H-4C; 4D-5H; 6C-6H; pass

Where 4C was no "slam interest" and cue bid. Denies A, K or Q of spades. 4D was LTTC, promises a spade control, and at least some slam interest. North is as good as he can be for his 4C only bid, so 5H is lackwood, and 6C shows diamond ACE and two key cards overall.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 1♠ Pass
2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass
4♠ Pass Pass Pass

---

Ok.. here I would make a forcing 3H raise with opener's hand, and then trot out blackwood. With a pickup partner, just bid 4NT over 2H.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

- Pass 1♠ Pass
2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass
4♠ Pass Pass Pass

---

This one violates teh rule of no first or second round control in fourth suit, so my bidding would be...

1S-2Hl; 3H-3S; 3NT-4H; 5H/Pass

3S shows teh king here... now serious 3NT and partner bids 4H. He didn't even make the last train response of 4D, so he is very weak for previous bidding. Opener can try 4NT but I think PASS of 5NT (how good are your trumps) are both better choices. The problem is over 5H, responder might think AQfifth is pretty good. The slam is very bad, needing Kx or singleton king on side... I wonder if anyone would brave enough to pass 4♥ after two slam tries... knowing partner has the spade king.

[1eyedjack]

There seems to be a strong case for splitting the ranges of a direct splinter and a delayed splinter (via forcing raise). If a direct raise is supposed to embrace all hands that do not contain an available splinter then it uses up a low level bid for a disproportionately small proportion of hands.

I think the principal of fast arrival is over-used. It certainly has it's place when you are sure that slam is out of the question, but the suggestion that 1S-2H-4H should show the same hand type as 1S-2H-3H except weaker is mistaken, where the 2H bid is unlimited. I reckon that 1S-2H-4H should show something highly specific, and 1S-2H-3H should embrace a wide variety of hands.

I misled you earlier when I said that in our methods 1S-2H-3H showed extras. I should have contented myself with the explanation that, whilst 1S-2H is not GF and 1S-2H-3H is GF, the 3H rebid does not necessarily show extra high card values, when there is compensating shape, especially with trump control. We played that 1S-2H-2S can be passed only if responder is minimum with a Spade fit, else it promises a rebid following which opener may show a minimum hand with delayed Heart support. There is a small risk of playing in 2S when a game is a good prospect by reason of a double fit, despite that both hands have minimum values in context. As soon as that risk becomes significant opener should prefer to raise 2H, which could contain a minimum raise with an outside shortage (and is committed to 4H).

I can see how it may gain to get the splinter across with the minimum hand, and make a direct raise with extras + splinter available.

At the moment I am unconvinced that there is a huge benefit to playing it one way over another, but have to do some research yet.

Anyway, Chiminea beckons for now.

[inquiry]

Well, here are some additional ones that fit the requirements.

1) Opener has heart fit (At least three)
2) Opnere has singleton (or void) in clubs

See how you would bid them. These were not always bid very well by the players involved.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     -     1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♥    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

If 4C denies first or second round control of diamonds, this is easy stop in 4♥.. if not, this will be a 4♦ LTTC and a 5♥ lackwood auction. If 4♣ denies stopper in diamonds (as I play it), then 4♦ is no longer neutral, it promises a control but expresses uncertaintly about bidding on.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     -     1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♥    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

A nice stop with use of the splinter. I would not splinter because of the diamonds cards.. Mine ould be 1S-2H-3H-3S-4C-4H-Pass.. explaination.. 3H = heart fit, 3S = A, K or Q of spades, 4C = cue-bid, no serious slam interest. IF opener has no serious interest, responder doesn't either, ending the auction.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     -     1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♥    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

I would never consider splintering on this hand with three trumps. Over 2♥, I would probably begin by rebidding my spade suit (still GF) and then raise hearts. To make slam partner needs great hearts, spade ace and/or diamond king. IF he has that, we have plenty of time to find it out after a 2♠ rebid.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     -     1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♥    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Again, with three card support, I will bid out my shape.. first with 3D, then with heart raise (via 4♣ cue-bid)...

1S-2Hl 3D-3NT; 4C-4H; Pass....

Here 4C and 4H both show short club and three card heart support. It is jsut that 4C is stronger than 4H. When you bie three suits naturally, you will be short in the fourth, and with four card support, I would surely raise immediately.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     -     1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♥    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

This wasn't a successful auction.. .here is how it should go...

1S-2H; 3H-3NT; 4C-4D; 4NT-5C; 6H, where 3H set trumps, 3S was serious denying fitting spade honor, 4C was cue-bid, 4D was LTTC (responder already showing slam interest). Opener can take over with RKCB, counting on long spades or minor suit ruffs to provide extra tricks as needed.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     -     1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♥    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Here the spliner works perfectly. Responder knows diamonds are wide open, and signs off is a safe, and makable 4♥. Five was down.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     -     1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♥    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

I may blunder along to this 50% slam as well.. I would rebid 3♦ over 2♥, partner will bid 3♠ (promising a minor suit control as well, since no picture jump). I am afraid I would bid Serious 3NT (if I trusted partner not to pass) or otherwise 4♣, and we would get to slam.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     -     1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♥    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Perfect splinter.. The singleton king doesn't both me. Big heart fit, no diamond control, singleton club. An easier slam to bid can hardly be found.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     -     1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♥    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

However, I don't splinter iwth singleton ACE.. so here my auction would be...

1S-2H; 3H-3S; 3NT; 4D-5H; 6D-7H

Where 3S was cue, 3NT was serious, 4D was LTTC, denying club control, 5H was Lackwood, 6D showed two keycards (including diamond ace) plus the heart queen. 7H can count the tricks.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     -     1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♥    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

6♥ is a fine contract, but this pair failed to investigate 7... and that could be criminal. A three heart raise, the lack of a spade cue-bid, so responder will bid 4C, opener will bid 4D, responder will try to signoff. Opener will ahve none of that... Everyone will get to 6♥.

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     -     1♠    Pass
 2♥    Pass  4♣    Pass
 4♥    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

Don;'t ask me hwo they got out of hearts and into Notrump.. blew grand slam and game bounus. An easleir hand can not be imagined...

1S-2H
4C <----- singleton, four turmps+, no diamond control

Now roman keycard blackwood and placement in 7H.

[cherdano]

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Oct 5 2004, 08:06 PM, said:

Do you really think opener should have slam interest with weak spades and hearts and a partner without slam interest who has wasted values in clubs? Seems to me going on can at best lead to a slam on a finesse, and pretty much only if partner has a singleton spade.

In a word yes. This is the advantage of Serious 3NT and LTTC. Clearly north has a minimum 2H response, so he will not issue a serious 3NT. Over 4C, south could sign off, or he could issue a small degree of uncertainty. After all, if necessary, his diamond suit might provide three tricks opposite three small. 4D by south is not a demand to bid slam, or even an absolute lets continue to try. My auctions frequently go 4D-4H-Pass here. It is responders good trumps, and responders singleton spade that allows him to keep the auction open. In otherwords, he has a virtual perfect 4C bid and if his partner doesn't sign off, he is primed to continue trying. Do I think most people will bid like this? No. Even I might waiver from time to time and bid 4H over 4C.. but I think 4D is the right bid. After all 4C covers a lot of different hand types.

Ben

[EricK]

I am still not convinced that this method (splinter denies control of 4th suit) is the best.

After 1♠ 2♥ (not GF) we have a lot of hand types we might want to show

1) Hands without ♥ support (of all strengths)
2) (Sub -) Minimum hands with ♥ support not suitable for game
3) Minimum hands which don't want to suggest a slam (but partner still might!)
4) Hands which are slam suitable but not particularly slam suggestive
5) Hands which are slam suggestive (or slam forcing)

I am sure you will agree that 1♠ 2♥ 4♥ should be a picture bid (i.e minimum hand no control in minors), rather than any minimum.

So you are splitting the support hands up as follows (please correct me if I am wrong)

Group 2: 2♠ followed by ♥ support (bearing in mind that 2♠ also covers various hands in group 1)
Group 3: 4♥ (if suitable - but most aren't) else 3♥
Group 4: Splinter (if suitable - but most aren't) else 3♥
Group 5: Splinter (if suitable - but most aren't) else 3♥ (or RKB, EKB etc)

It may be that this is best, but it does seem that you are not making the most efficient use of alternative bids.

Eric

[cherdano]

EricK, on Oct 6 2004, 07:19 AM, said:

I am still not convinced that this method (splinter denies control of 4th suit) is the best.

After 1♠ 2♥ (not GF) we have a lot of hand types we might want to show

1) Hands without ♥ support (of all strengths)
2) (Sub -) Minimum hands with ♥ support not suitable for game
3) Minimum hands which don't want to suggest a slam (but partner still might!)
4) Hands which are slam suitable but not particularly slam suggestive
5) Hands which are slam suggestive (or slam forcing)

I am sure you will agree that 1♠ 2♥ 4♥ should be a picture bid (i.e minimum hand no control in minors), rather than any minimum.

Let me try to answer this, I am sure Ben will correct me where I get it wrong, hehe
Ben is assuming serious 3NT and LTTC, so all this can be clarified later.

First I think Ben is talking about 2/1 GF, so 2) doesn't exist. If you change 2) to "miminum hands, not suitable for slam at all", we get:
2) delayed raise to 3♥, ignore partner's serious 3NT.
3) Will omit serious 3NT, will make one cue-bid if partner bids serious 3NT, but probably sign-off if partner doesn't go to slam after this (i.e. sign-off if partner bids LTTC).
4) Will make one try if partner omits serious 3NT, or will bid serious 3NT, but not go to slam without partner's cooperation
5) Bid serious 3NT and go to slam if you get the right cuebid.

On the other hand, if you splinter without strict requirements, you cannot discuss missing controls below 4♠ (and Gitelman cuebidding style tries to avoid the need of cuebidding on the 5-level).

[Chamaco]

EricK, on Oct 6 2004, 07:19 AM, said:

I am still not convinced that this method (splinter denies control of 4th suit) is the best.

This may or may not be best.

The main point of using a splinter is that a splinter *RELINQUISHES CAPTAINCY".

Basically the point is: splinter is a descriptive bid, and descriptive bids are used to transfer to pard the decision, letting him know how the hand fits.

So, when WE KNOW WE WANT TO BID ON even on pard's signoff, splinter is not a good idea, unless it is the only non-signoff fit-showing bid available.

This principle is also the reason why some hands like the following (opps silent):

1♠: ?

♠KQXX-QXX-AKQx-x

Here responder should NOT splinter because he is too strong.
So the splinter should be limited in a narrow range.
Hands too strong for a splinter should use a forcing raise (Jacoby 2NT if you use such method, or whichever way your methods allow for), which have 2 advantages: keep the bidding captaincy and do not waste bidding space.

So, IF YOU PLAN TO BID ON, DO NOT USE SPLINTER (unless you have no other forcing bid available).
IF YOU USE THE SPLINTER, YOU'LL TRANSFER THE DECISION OF THE FINAL CONTRACT TO PARD.

[inquiry]

EricK, on Oct 6 2004, 03:19 AM, said:

I am still not convinced that this method (splinter denies control of 4th suit) is the best.

After 1♠ 2♥ (not GF) we have a lot of hand types we might want to show

1) Hands without ♥ support (of all strengths)
2) (Sub -) Minimum hands with ♥ support not suitable for game
3) Minimum hands which don't want to suggest a slam (but partner still might!)
4) Hands which are slam suitable but not particularly slam suggestive
5) Hands which are slam suggestive (or slam forcing)

I am sure you will agree that 1♠ 2♥ 4♥ should be a picture bid (i.e minimum hand no control in minors), rather than any minimum.

So you are splitting the support hands up as follows (please correct me if I am wrong)

Group 2: 2♠ followed by ♥ support (bearing in mind that 2♠ also covers various hands in group 1)
Group 3: 4♥ (if suitable - but most aren't) else 3♥
Group 4: Splinter (if suitable - but most aren't) else 3♥
Group 5: Splinter (if suitable - but most aren't) else 3♥ (or RKB, EKB etc)

It may be that this is best, but it does seem that you are not making the most efficient use of alternative bids.

Eric

Arend spoke very eloquently for me... so I will be just confirming what he said. First, yes, my type of splitner bid can only work where 2♥ is 100% game force. If 2♥ is not forcing, all bets are off. I don't play 2♥ as nonforcing very often and I certainly haven't spent any time trying to figure out how best to bid in such situations.

I do however agree that 1S-2H-4H is a picture bid if 2♥ is game force. If 2♥ is not game force,, well I am not so sure. I use 4♥ then to show extra values without a splinter..but again, I am on thin ice is this unfamiliar territory. I will defer to people who bid this way on the best way to bid.

With 2♥ as game force, I split the hands with support as follows...

4♥ = picture bid.. heart support, no first or second round minor control. Generally good heart support at that (else 2♠ then 4♥.. 4♥ is BETTER than 2♠ followed by 4♥.

4♣/4♦ = splinter. A singleton (no void), no control in other minor, generally four card support. The singleton will NOT be the ACE.

5♣/5♦ = exlusion blackwood agreeing hearts...

3♥ = heart support, promises a control in one or the other minor, maybe both, but DOES NOT PROMISE slam interest. Responder defines his hand with use of serious 3NT or not. Responder can cue-bid spade fitting honor here with or without slam interest.

I think this approach, as discussed by Mauro, is based upon the sound principle that a splinter bid should be very descriptive. Having a singleton is only one feature of a splinter.. if you use it so show more, to be more descriptive, it simplifies a lot of other auctions, and can often allow responder to place the contract accurately right after the splinter bid. In our cases, signing off with no control in the other minor if the splinter (as it should) denies a control there.

Ben

[EricK]

I see where part of the confusion lies.

I was speaking with this in mind:

Quote

We were playing a sort of Acol with weak 1NT opener and 4 card majors.
2H was not GF, but any rebid by opener beyond 2S would have been GF.

Whereas you are talking about the optimum conventions in a slightly different set of circumstances.

Eric

[helium]

EricK, on Oct 5 2004, 11:11 AM, said:

helium, on Oct 5 2004, 03:33 PM, said:

west is 100% to blame

Could you elaborate?

Was his 4♣ bid an overbid or an underbid, in your opinion? Do you think he should have bid on over 4♥?

Eric

i think he should countinu whit 4♠now.

[EricK]

Even if we are playing 2/1, I am not convinced!

I am sure you have read Fred's post on another thread where he mentioned why Frivolous 3NT was better than Serious 3NT (i.e. if neither player really wants to look for a slam it is better that less information is given to the opponents). I think the same thing may apply here i.e. a Serious splinter is better than a Frivolous splinter.

Also, I am worried about sequences like this (I will assume serious 3NT as that is what you were using in earlier posts, but similar things apply to Frivolous):

1♠ 2♥
3♥ 4♣ (frivolous)

Aren't you at all interested whether the 4♣ bidder has the A? He may be cue-bidding the K, or he may even have a singleton! Now if you cue-bid 4♦ to show your seriousness, partner has to either sign off in 4♥ and you have to then decide whther to bid on, or he bids to the five level thinking you like his ♣K.

Eric

[Chamaco]

EricK, on Oct 5 2004, 04:11 PM, said:

helium, on Oct 5 2004, 03:33 PM, said:

west is 100% to blame

Could you elaborate?

Was his 4♣ bid an overbid or an underbid, in your opinion? Do you think he should have bid on over 4♥?

Eric

A useless bid, neither underbid nor overbid.

Why describe the hand when you simply need to know about a few aces and trump honors and simple tools to get such info are there ?

After 4C the emphasis is on diamond, and west does not need this info.

True, it describes the hand, but in this sequience there si no ned to describe, west needs to get info from pard, not give info to pard.