[Flem72]

I wish I knew of a way to change the 'subject' line to indicate the beginning of a Part 2, but in view of the responses I may abandon that idea anyway: Did no one think of 3D as a possible reopening call? I'm interested to hear what are the objections to this action.

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

[rhm]

Flem72, on 2011-August-13, 06:38, said:

I wish I knew of a way to change the 'subject' line to indicate the beginning of a Part 2, but in view of the responses I may abandon that idea anyway: Did no one think of 3D as a possible reopening call? I'm interested to hear what are the objections to this action.

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

Partner is marked with likely length in ♥, since West did not open weak two in ♥ nor did East raise 2♥. How happy would you be in 3♦, if dummy comes down with 3 cards in ♦ and a singleton ♠?
But a big advantage of 2♠ is that North might introduce a long minor over 2♠, something he would not do over 3♠, which should show a more lopsided hand.
Over such a minor suit bid from partner only the sky could be the limit.

Rainer Herrmann

[gszes]

West deals, N-S vul

North:
x
JTxxx
AKx
QTxx

South:
AKJT9x
void
QTxx
AJx

P-P-P-1S
2H-P-P-?

why not the following?

2s a bid we would make with more offense and far less
defense maybe a hand similar to Kxxxxxx xx AQ A

3d has some possibilities but probably buries a club
fit and maybe steers us in wrong direction especially
if p is weak

3h makes little sense when long strong suit is major
and we are too weak and need more aces vs quacks

3s There is no reason to assume p has power and 3s should
be a hand worth around 8 tricks vul vs not and we are a
long way away from that

that leaves X

if p bids

pass fine we have enough defense.
2n 4s
3c pass
3d pass
3h 4s
3s pass
3n 4s
4c 4h
4d 4h
4s this happens you need a new p

[JLOGIC]

rhm, on 2011-August-13, 09:02, said:

But a big advantage of 2♠ is that North might introduce a long minor over 2♠, something he would not do over 3♠, which should show a more lopsided hand.
Over such a minor suit bid from partner only the sky could be the limit.

Rainer Herrmann

A big advantage? Lol, this seems like way less than 1 % to happen.

[Flem72]

rhm, on 2011-August-13, 09:02, said:

How happy would you be in 3♦, if dummy comes down with 3 cards in ♦ and a singleton ♠?

Not very happy. S/he better apologize for underholding. ()

But (this is mps--sorry, didn't specify; and, FYI, I'm not a doubler with this South hand type) even if partner is really bad for this auction, unless opps are Al Roth disciples, s/he's marked with SOMETHING. Like

x
JTxxx
Kxx
xxxx, or CK instead, or maybe HQ and CQ.

So I get to play 3D undoubled, hoping They don't lead one, or -- much more likely in 2011 -- East will compete to 3H, in which case now either 3S or pass to partner's double (I'd call 3S at these colors). In context, is this sensible? or would this plan flag (a) a certifiable idiot, (b) a normal matchpoint fool or © merely an optimist? 6S is not out of the question with the actual layout; claiming shape AND strength with 3D would seem the best way to get there, especially if East DOES call 3H--now North has a road map, doesn't s/he? OTOH, the real disaster North hand would be

x
JTxxx
xx
xxxxx. Next board -- wish I'd emphasized the spades.

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

[rhm]

JLOGIC, on 2011-August-13, 11:39, said:

A big advantage? Lol, this seems like way less than 1 % to happen.

Granted it is unlikely, but certainly higher than 1%. The whole condition around the table is a priori not likely and to estimate conditional probabilities is notoriously difficult.
I tried some simulations. Give West a 5 card ♥ suit or 4-6 in ♠ and ♥ and 8-11 HCP, East a maximum of 10 HCP.
Assuming partner to have at least 4 cards in ♥ and less than 3 cards in ♠, chances that he will hold a six card minor with at most 8 HCP is under the given conditions better than 3%.

Rainer Herrmann

[gwnn]

And how often do you think he will introduce that minor? Even if he has a singleton spade, introducing his minor would need a very good suit. If he has a doubleton, playing in spades is a no brainer.

[rhm]

gwnn, on 2011-August-13, 14:45, said:

And how often do you think he will introduce that minor? Even if he has a singleton spade, introducing his minor would need a very good suit. If he has a doubleton, playing in spades is a no brainer.

That depends how many ♥ partner expects opener to have. If he correctly infers why opener did not reopen with a DBL, he will expect minor suit cards.
With a weak hand and only long ♠ opener would not have opened 1♠ fourth in hand, but with a higher number of them.
Also partner knows that opener had no way introducing a minor at a low level.

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

gwnn, on 2011-August-13, 14:45, said:

And how often do you think he will introduce that minor? Even if he has a singleton spade, introducing his minor would need a very good suit. If he has a doubleton, playing in spades is a no brainer.

That depends how many ♥ partner expects opener to have. If he correctly infers why opener did not reopen with a DBL, he will expect minor suit cards.
With a weak hand and only long ♠ opener would not have opened 1♠ fourth in hand, but with a higher number of them.
Also partner knows that opener had no way introducing a minor at a low level.

Rainer Herrmann

[vianu2]

All the posters play in that auction P-P-P-1SP / 2H- 2NT -as a fitted hand in spades?
I know lot of people not playing that .for some good reasons.
But anyway, this is a 4th opening and a partner who already passed 11+ points.
How many times should he pass until starting to share with us his collection ... btw 3 controls!
If you have in system 2NT fitted then you should have another bid for the natural 2NT. 2sp transfer to 2NT lol?
Is that an hypothetical discussion about S's bidding, in case N would not have what he has and then he passed right?
Is the N's pass forcing? (lol) . Do u open 12 or bad 13 count with spades in 4th? I think yes, np.
But do u accept as a normality to open 4th and let opponents play ? You, siting in N with 11 points, u accept to defend 2h in case partner opened bad 13?
Don't get me wrong. I don't know how to handle those things and it becomes very annoying. I'm a non expert/

[gwnn]

rhm, on 2011-August-13, 15:17, said:

If he correctly infers why opener did not reopen with a DBL,

For example, a short minor suit is a good reason not to reopen with a DBL.

[JLOGIC]

gwnn, on 2011-August-13, 16:30, said:

For example, a short minor suit is a good reason not to reopen with a DBL.

Having a 7 card spade suit is a good reason too!

[TWO4BRIDGE]

rhm, on 2011-August-12, 01:05, said:

I would not reopen with a double on the South hand. I would simply rebid 2♠.

North will probably bid 2NT and South will now have a difficult choice.

Rainer Herrmann

South:
N/S Vul

South
AKJT9x
void
QTxx
AJx

If you think this hand is too strong to open 2S in 4th seat, then 2S on the 2nd round I think should show this hand:
P-P-P-1S
2H-P-P-2S ... instead of a 3S-jump.

[gnasher]

vianu2, on 2011-August-13, 15:46, said:

All the posters play in that auction P-P-P-1SP / 2H- 2NT -as a fitted hand in spades?
I know lot of people not playing that .for some good reasons.
But anyway, this is a 4th opening and a partner who already passed 11+ points.
How many times should he pass until starting to share with us his collection ... btw 3 controls!
If you have in system 2NT fitted then you should have another bid for the natural 2NT. 2sp transfer to 2NT lol?
Is that an hypothetical discussion about S's bidding, in case N would not have what he has and then he passed right?
Is the N's pass forcing? (lol) . Do u open 12 or bad 13 count with spades in 4th? I think yes, np.
But do u accept as a normality to open 4th and let opponents play ? You, siting in N with 11 points, u accept to defend 2h in case partner opened bad 13?
Don't get me wrong. I don't know how to handle those things and it becomes very annoying. I'm a non expert/

North passes over 2♥ because he expects that South has short hearts, and will therefore reopen. That doesn't make the pass forcing, and it doesn't mean that North wants to defend 2♥ undoubled.

[xxhong]

I systematically play 3S to show a stronger hand about 8-8.5 tricks in hand. This is isn't very good without some help from partner, in which case he would usually raise. Also, I tend to balance less frequently than most. So my 2S usually shows a quite nice hand, in the range of a good 1S 1N 2S rebid or a weak 1S 1N 3S hand. With your listed hand, I open 2S at the 4th seat and open 3S at other seats.

gnasher, on 2011-August-12, 11:33, said:

2♠ seems an understatement with the South hand. We'd bid that with AKJ10xx - Qxxx xxx. I think a reasonable auction is:

1♠ 2♥ pass pass
3♠ pass 4♦ pass
4♥ pass 4♠ pass
pass pass

though either player might have taken stronger action on the last round.

[MrAce]

Interesting replies.

I disagree that not reopening with DBL implied ♥ void or minors in anyway.

Imo 2 or 3♠ rebids are very close. If this is a 2♠ it is clearly very top of 2♠ and if this is a 3♠ it is bottom of 3♠.

-2♠ has the advantage of going + more often, pd will usually (not always) make a move with hands that fits well and too many holes in minor suits in front of overcaller. And as Two4bridge said we did not open 2♠, we cant be so bad

-3♠ bid will allow to find game more often, will tell pd not to worry much about ♠ suit, and after all LHO overcalled our void, which is good news. Also we can expect to gain advantage from the lead.

One thing i would not do is to DBL with this, i can live with both 2 or 3 ♠

[Yu18772]

I think that 3♠, or 2♠ depends on what you play as 2 level opening in 4th seat
- if is kind of stronger preempt (10-12/13), 2♠ might be enough, if this is strong than 3♠ would be better.
Dont like dbl with voids.