[MrAce]

I started this topic in order not to hijack Manu's thread ----> http://www.bridgebas...port-or-defend/

Aguahombre, Phil, Justin and Andy already chipped in their opinion, but i will appreciate if they tell they still play this as support DBL under the given explenations.

1♣-(1♥)-1♠*-(2♣)
DBL

1♠ = 5+ (2♠ would be 5♠+4♣)

2♣ = cue


Our debate with a very good player was about this DBL being support or showing a hand with good ♣ suit, pretty different than the one in Manu's thread. What do you think is the best way to use this DBL ?

One side thinks it should show good ♣ suit and that no need for support DBL since 1♠ already showed 5

other side thinks eventhough 1♠ showed 5 it maybe important for pd to know if we have 4 or 3 card support since this looks like gonna be a bid on or let them play decision most of the time. And that ♣ suit has less competition value compared to ♠ suit so major should be our priority..

And will your answer change if 1♠ bid showed 4+ only ?

[mikeh]

If 1♠ promised 5+, my views are that the double should show clubs. Here's why.

1. If we have 3+ spades, we want to show the support now, and we gain by raising on 3 by taking away LHO's bidding space. Over 2♠, we make him (usually) bid at the 3 level or pass. if by contrast we double, we give him the 2-level, the pass, and the redouble.

2. If we have 4, and the opps compete, and partner passes, we can still make the LOTT decision about 3 level competition, depending on how our hand looks. While there will be some hands on which we would be better placed were partner to know we have 4 (thus we could respect his decision to pass 3♥, for example), most of the time we will compete to the LOTT level anyway.

3. Otoh, it is when we lack a spade fit that competitive decisions become more difficult. Let's say we have a moderate hand with good(ish) clubs such that we would like to compete to 3♣ if partner has 3 of them, but not if he may be short in the suit. What can we do, if we use double to show spade support?

Obviously, this is a trade-off that we make on other support double sequences, but to me the reason we make that trade-off is precisely because partner may only hold a 4 card suit, and thus the need to differentiate our degree of support is viewed, by users of the support double, as outweighing the need to suggest competing in opener's suit. It is my view that the benefits shift back to the double showing clubs once responder promises a 5 card suit.


I hope that my explanation makes it clear that I would vote for support doubles if 1♠ promises only 4+. Actually, for me, I use 1♠ to show an otherwise unbiddable hand with values (almost always 5+ in the other minor)....can't show spades (via a double, operating as a transfer...4+), bid 1N, raise clubs, etc.

[mike777]

"other side thinks eventhough 1♠ showed 5 it maybe important for pd to know if we have 4 or 3 card support since this looks like gonna be a bid on or let them play decision most of the"


agree support x still on here.

[Yu18772]

100% agree with mikeh

[Free]

I would never play this as support Dbl, it's useless. If you want it to show some sort of support, I'd rather show ♠Hx instead of the difference betweer 3 or 4 card support. But without specific agreements, I'd interpret Dbl as ♣.

[mfa1010]

We play this as takeout of hearts (except that we play strong club, but had it been a 1♦-opening (4+♦ for us) instead...).

So an active 2245 14-count would be ideal for doubling 2♣.

[gnasher]

mfa1010, on 2011-August-16, 06:10, said:

We play this as takeout of hearts (except that we play strong club, but had it been a 1♦-opening (4+♦ for us) instead...).

So an active 2245 14-count would be ideal for doubling 2♣.

That's my preferred meaning too, but I prefer not to play support doubles in any auction.

In this specific sequence a support double seems particularly unnecessary: you have 2♥, 2♠, 3♥, 3♠ and possibly 2NT available to show spade raises. That seems plenty to me.

[mfa1010]

gnasher, on 2011-August-16, 06:19, said:

In this specific sequence a support double seems particularly unnecessary: you have 2♥, 2♠, 3♥, 3♠ and possibly 2NT available to show spade raises. That seems plenty to me.

We do indeed play:
2♥= good raise with 3
2♠= bad raise with 3
3♥= good raise with 4
3♠= bad raise with 4