[Hanoi5]

White vs Red, teams:

♠QJT9872
♥QTx
♦x
♣xx

3♦-3♥-Pa-???

[wank]

4♠ imo

i'd like to bid 3 non-forcing ♠, but sadly that's not an option.

with any finesses likely to be wrong, we need prime cards from partner to make 4♠, but 3♥ may well be off too, especially if they find a trump lead.

[the hog]

As this is Imps, I am bidding 4S. I am not going to bid 34H as this hand will play far better in S than H.

[ahydra]

4S would be nice but I always hate doing something like this in case partner thinks it's a splinter, or exclusion, or something. So I'll bid 3S then 4S.

I also considered pass and 4H - you might easily luck out in 4H facing say K AKxxx xxx KQxx (and an opponent who goes up with the SA first round, I suppose).

ahydra

[xxhong]

easy pass for me. We shouldn't expect a very good hand from partner.

Hanoi5, on 2011-August-04, 21:26, said:

White vs Red, teams:

♠QJT9872
♥QTx
♦x
♣xx

3♦-3♥-Pa-???

[the hog]

xxhong, on 2011-August-05, 14:56, said:

easy pass for me. We shouldn't expect a very good hand from partner.

You are kidding me, aren't you? Partner will have a pretty reasonable hand to bid at the 3 level.

[jonottawa]

I can't believe I'm bidding 3♠. Does 4♠ really show this hand? Sounds splintery to me.

[gwnn]

jonottawa, on 2011-August-11, 01:25, said:

I can't believe I'm bidding 3♠. Does 4♠ really show this hand? Sounds splintery to me.

I think a good rule is not to have splinters in competition unless it's a jump in a suit they had already bid (and it's not a mixed raise).

[nigel_k]

gwnn, on 2011-August-11, 03:39, said:

I think a good rule is not to have splinters in competition unless it's a jump in a suit they had already bid (and it's not a mixed raise).

I agree with this and maybe also include a jump to four of a minor, but definitely not a game bid.

[gnasher]

To make 4♠ splinter to advancer must have short spades and the values to drive the five level. Thta's pretty rare, and such a hand can often be bid by 4♦ followed by RKCB, or 4♦ followed by a 4♠ cue-bid.

If 4♠ is natural, you can use 3♠ followed by 4♠ as a non-forcing slam try. That seems a far more common hand type to me, and it's also a hand-type that you can't easily bid another way.

[wyman]

4S for me. I'm much more comfortable getting involved since RHO did not bid diamonds here. Considered 4H but I think a trump lead would be disastrous for us, and this just looks to play much better in spades. I'd love a NF 3S, but I can't have everything.

[xxhong]

Basically, if his hand is too good, he can always double or bid 4H. 3H asks for a raise for hands with at least the upper limit of a constructive raise, which you don't have. If you bid 3S, it is forcing and a huge overbid IMO, partner is expecting a hand with at least one king stronger than this hand. 4S for us is kickback. Also, RHO's failure to raise to 4D indicate that partner may have some length in D, so your chance to find a very good fit in S would become lower. So why do I have to bid here?

the hog, on 2011-August-05, 23:18, said:

You are kidding me, aren't you? Partner will have a pretty reasonable hand to bid at the 3 level.

[gnasher]

xxhong, on 2011-August-11, 11:21, said:

So why do I have to bid here?

Because you'll miss a good game opposite x AKxxx xxx AKxx or K AKxxx xxx Axxx.

Quote

4S for us is kickback

What would 4♦ followed by 4♠ be?

[xxhong]

Well, it doesn't have to be cold after H leads, and even if it is cold I don't mind missing some good games facing 4 cover cards and opps happen to have more HCPs. Basically, you want to play a nonforcing 3S here if you just hold this hand, so with 4 cover cards, partner may raise you. However, if you play 3S as nonforcing, you may have many problems bidding good hands. Also, Many quite good holdings from the 3H overcaller only offer you 3 cover cards. I think that's just the price you want to pay to play 3S to be forcing and 3H really may make some times when 3S don't.

Of course, you can have an agreement on 4D then 4S to be RKC and direct 4S to play, but we are simple minded and just play a direct jump to 4S as RKC, which may reduce the chance of leading directing doubles. Still, even if you play a direct 4S to be to play, this hand can be too weak for that purpose. Your partner may move on with some rather good hands to explore for slams and you still may go down at 5 because you just have no key cards. This hand is just intrinsically quite weak IMO and I don't really mind missing some good 4S. IMO, a 4 S hand should be at least something like AQJTxxx xx x xxx, which is considerably stronger than the listed hand.

gnasher, on 2011-August-11, 12:44, said:

Because you'll miss a good game opposite x AKxxx xxx AKxx or K AKxxx xxx Axxx.


What would 4♦ followed by 4♠ be?

[jmcw]

I dont play Kickback and jumps to 4 of a M are to play unless specifically agreed as a splinter.

4♠ to play, partner will pass, and I expect to have a play to make.

[the hog]

xxhong, on 2011-August-11, 11:21, said:

Basically, if his hand is too good, he can always double or bid 4H. 3H asks for a raise for hands with at least the upper limit of a constructive raise, which you don't have. If you bid 3S, it is forcing and a huge overbid IMO, partner is expecting a hand with at least one king stronger than this hand. 4S for us is kickback. Also, RHO's failure to raise to 4D indicate that partner may have some length in D, so your chance to find a very good fit in S would become lower. So why do I have to bid here?

You don't HAVE to bid here. I think it is correct to do so. Doubling on any "good Hand" might involve your partner bidding 5Cs. How would you like that?
Playing 4S as kickback? Well I would change the methods. I agree that 3S is a huge overbid.