[Phil]

---

MPs

Declarer played very skilfully and made an overtrick. ATB.

Have at it, jackals.

[aguahombre]

Which part of South's hand did he not describe with the first double?

[nige1]

IMO: Bad luck = 50%, System = 30%, North 10%, South 10%.

• South might prefer to overcall 2N rather than double 2♥.
• If you don't play Lebensohl or Rubensohl here, then your system is a bit to blame.
• For us Walruses, South's double of 3♠ is reflex but, with hindsight, South might have been wary of his poorly placed ♠.
• Perhaps North should remove because if West has no ♥ (as advertised), then North's hand can contribute little to the defence.

[Free]

South 90% for his 2nd Dbl. 10% bad luck.

[Cyberyeti]

aguahombre, on 2011-July-31, 21:55, said:

Which part of South's hand did he not describe with the first double?

He described a 4144 12 count, he has 17 including what might well be 3 trump tricks, particularly if declarer needs to ruff anything in dummy, and his partner has made a free bid.

Playing lebensohl or something of the sort here is essential, 3♣ should show a decent hand, which it is offensively but not defensively, so I'd probably show it the weak way which might discourage partner from doubling, but I think that decision is close.

I'd say not much blame other than system if no Lebensohl.

[hotShot]

I blame North.

He's got no defense trick (it's quite sure that West can ruff ♥ if he runs to ♠ ) and he knows that partners values are in front of the stronger opponent.
He's got a 6 card ♣ suit and all smells like a great ♥ / ♠ crossruff play.

[dake50]

This auction screams for a trump lead from partner, even with his void.
Could this be forseen? Yup!
3NT makes some sense instead of South's second double.

[vianu2]

Let's say we are playing Lebenshol so we bid 2NT here? Does it help ? Over 3♠ partner has no clue what is our minor))) Lebenshol should be used without interference.

3♣ seems ok to me over 2♠ and of course, S must be able to know that his partner is short ♦ so his ♦ may not work.
So with that funny X he tells that he has 2,3 (let's say 4) defenses which he made!
And how many downs can be there? yeah Partner may have k♣ so what? U set it -1 but u make 3NT.

I would not pass with N's hand. If partner has ♣ honours and ♠ honours then he has very little outside and that's too bad. If not, we cannot use the ♣ suit to beat the contract. So my hand is not useful. Of course, 4♣ here with a normal defense get 500 and is not a big deal.

Why not simply bid 3NT with the S's hand?
I would X 3♠ with something like akxx/xx/akxx( or kqxx)/axx just because i have too many controls and not a heart stopper.(and not a very good ♣ fit)...and again i will not blame my partner if he run.
So i dunno like to take that X (over 3♠) as penalty so i do blame N for pass and S for bidding that X with such a hand, having 5 controls but only 3 useful.

[Cyberyeti]

vianu2, on 2011-August-01, 06:49, said:

Let's say we are playing Lebenshol so we bid 2NT here? Does it help ? Over 3♠ partner has no clue what is our minor))) Lebenshol should be used without interference.

This is why a lot of people me included reverse lebensohl so 2N is weak with clubs or the good hands, and the good hands bid again, so the immediate 3♦ would be weak.

[pooltuna]

aguahombre, on 2011-July-31, 21:55, said:

Which part of South's hand did he not describe with the first double?

the fact that he had NT values?

[vianu2]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-01, 07:28, said:

This is why a lot of people me included reverse lebensohl so 2N is weak with clubs or the good hands, and the good hands bid again, so the immediate 3♦ would be weak.

So let's see if i understand.
2♥-X-2♠-2nt (leb weak with clubs or good hand)

3♠-X (automatic now, to show a better hand than a minimal double)-p-? i have weak hand i am going to 4♣ -2. (hope not to be doubled).
or
3♠-pass (if partner has good hand he must bid again? in which case?)-pass-Now?
Hmmm
I think that lebenshol puts me in a big trouble; i am curious how will u bid here.
Edit.
I think that instead of playing so many conventions could be better to just imagine that u play against sane opponents and to judge their reasons too.
How can it work (your leb) in such auction:being V against NV.
1♣-2♥-2NT-5♥

[WGF_Flame]

North 80% bad luck 20%

[semeai]

I'd say South's double is a typical cards double at matchpoints: extra values, decent trumps given the auction. North should perhaps pull (I'm biased by seeing the result) but was also just unlucky.

[Cyberyeti]

vianu2, on 2011-August-01, 08:15, said:

So let's see if i understand.
2♥-X-2♠-2nt (leb weak with clubs or good hand)

3♠-X (automatic now, to show a better hand than a minimal double)-p-? i have weak hand i am going to 4♣ -2. (hope not to be doubled).
or
3♠-pass (if partner has good hand he must bid again? in which case?)-pass-Now?
Hmmm
I think that lebenshol puts me in a big trouble; i am curious how will u bid here.
Edit.
I think that instead of playing so many conventions could be better to just imagine that u play against sane opponents and to judge their reasons too.
How can it work (your leb) in such auction:being V against NV.
1♣-2♥-2NT-5♥

X by the big hand is "I want to double this for pens if you have the weak hand with clubs".
P is Pass with clubs, don't with anything else. What X is opposite is open to partnership agreement, but can be the "Staymanic with a stop".

Lebensohl in this situation has never got me in serious trouble, and is invaluable when opps don't raise, or you have the purely competitive hand with a red suit and partner isn't worrying whether he should raise with more than a minimum.

[xxhong]

South shouldn't double 3S here. They are very likely in a 9 card spade fit, so doubling is too aggressive IMO. 3NT looks like a good bid. 3NT can be good when partner has a good club suit, or fine club suit and a few good cards in H. I don't think north should pull south's penalty double.

Phil, on 2011-July-31, 21:47, said:

---

MPs

Declarer played very skilfully and made an overtrick. ATB.

Have at it, jackals.

[MrAce]

I find it interesting to see people blaming S. South has a decent hand, AKJx ♠, Kx ♥ behind 1♥ opener and much more. It is quite a view to think that he should just pass in peace here when pd made a free call, just because we know the result. Of course we may pass thinking that opponents may have hands like 6-5 and voids and avoid ever letting them make a dbled contract . We never play a % 45 session when everything goes wrong, but probably never play a % 65 session either with this logic. I will not blame North much either, but i would personally lift it.

It is also confusing to me that some decent players here think 2♥ DBL already showed South's hand.

[ahydra]

I'd have bid 2NT at first with S and that might get us to 3NT (or unfortunately the hopeless 5C). So I'm not ruling out bad luck but I'm not convinced the 2nd double (no matter what it meant) or North's pass of said double was the best. If the 2nd double was takeout I think North should bid 5C.

ahydra

[vianu2]

MrAce, on 2011-August-01, 12:05, said:

I find it interesting to see people blaming S. South has a decent hand, AKJx ♠, Kx ♥ behind 1♥ opener and much more. It is quite a view to think that he should just pass in peace here when pd made a free call, just because we know the result. Of course we may pass thinking that opponents may have hands like 6-5 and voids and avoid ever letting them make a dbled contract . We never play a % 45 session when everything goes wrong, but probably never play a % 65 session either with this logic. I will not blame North much either, but i would personally lift it.

It is also confusing to me that some decent players here think 2♥ DBL already showed South's hand.

S has a decent hand and " much more" but it can't be expressed with another X just because of the luck of defenses. If we think our opps are sane then partner cant have too much for his 3cl free bid, as i said. So S must reevaluate his hand and count max 3 defenses. In that case he has a minimal hand already showed in the first round.
Based on the club suit, his hand is much valuable in 3NT .
ps. Wondering, who u want to bid 3NT here: his partner with void spade?

[nigel_k]

WGF_Flame, on 2011-August-01, 08:15, said:

North 80% bad luck 20%

I agree with this.

South is not showing a hand with lots of spades. He is showing a takeout double with extra values and four good spades. North has a clear pull to 4♣ with six clubs and a spade void. If South cannot double with this hand then you can't ever get them and there are lots of idiots out there, plus the possibility that West may have psyched.

[MrAce]

vianu2, on 2011-August-01, 14:10, said:

S has a decent hand and " much more" but it can't be expressed with another X just because of the luck of defenses. If we think our opps are sane then partner cant have too much for his 3cl free bid, as i said. So S must reevaluate his hand and count max 3 defenses. In that case he has a minimal hand already showed in the first round.
Based on the club suit, his hand is much valuable in 3NT .
ps. Wondering, who u want to bid 3NT here: his partner with void spade?

Exchange your pd's ♥A with dummy's ♣ A or declarer's ♦ A with same hand and we wouldn't even be discussing this topic. I know then we are more likely to make 3 NT.
Can bid 3 NT (and i would probably bid ), i have no objection to that, can DBL too. Even with this what pd holds , change a bit opps hand, u can be in good shape with DBL.

But advocating pass by south, thinking he already told his hand is what i disagreed.