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Which game and how to get there? P opens, I have 14 HCP

#1 User is offline   mck4711 

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Posted 2011-July-23, 10:38

non vs vul, IMP, E dealer, p (S) opens, no agreements

QJ10
KJ98x
J
AQ9x

p - 1C - p - 1H
p - 2C - p - 2S*
3D - 3H - p - 4H

*is 2S the best bid?
My reasoning: p opens, together with my 14 HCP (ok, 13 without single J) and good intermediates we are more than close to game. Which one: 3NT, 4H, 5C? Jump to 3H would promise 6H, and I am not sure if this is GF or invitational. Since p has denied 4S - otherwise he would have bid 1S - the risk that p raises S is low (giving me 4 cards in S). I show values in S, should have now 5+ cards in H, and 2S is for sure forcing. P has now chance to describe his hand, i.e. bid 3NT with D-values, support H or to rebid C.
Reasoning correct? Are there other (better) bids?

P had Ax, Q10x, Qxx, KJxxx
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#2 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2011-July-23, 10:51

Looks good from here. Only question I have is why you doubt your decisions. You didn't know which strain to play, but needed to force. Keep up the good work.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#3 User is offline   daveharty 

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Posted 2011-July-23, 11:04

This was a creative solution you came up with, but why did your partner put you in this position? Either a 1NT rebid, showing a balanced 12-14, or a 2H rebid (not unreasonable with HHx in your major and a side doubleton), look better than 2C with partner's hand. Then you could have simply used New Minor Forcing (or whatever equivalent you play) to discover the heart fit at a lower level, and give the partnership plenty of room to determine the best game or slam.

On the given auction, I would have been tempted to (ahem) splinter with your hand at your second turn--but I understand the "S" word is frowned upon in this forum. :)
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#4 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2011-July-23, 11:54

What is the problem with splinters?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#5 User is offline   mck4711 

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Posted 2011-July-23, 12:58

View Postdaveharty, on 2011-July-23, 11:04, said:

This was a creative solution you came up with, but why did your partner put you in this position? Either a 1NT rebid, showing a balanced 12-14, or a 2H rebid (not unreasonable with HHx in your major and a side doubleton), look better than 2C with partner's hand. Then you could have simply used New Minor Forcing (or whatever equivalent you play) to discover the heart fit at a lower level, and give the partnership plenty of room to determine the best game or slam.

On the given auction, I would have been tempted to (ahem) splinter with your hand at your second turn--but I understand the "S" word is frowned upon in this forum. :)


4D-splinter on 2nd bid? does this splinter then confirm p's clubs? if yes, then interesting alternative. how do you usually continue after splinter: CAB, RCKB, cuebid (1st/2nd round?)? especially if you have no special agreements with p, meaning what is considered to be standard?
btw: does splinter show 1st or 2nd round control?
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#6 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-July-23, 13:15

View Postjillybean, on 2011-July-23, 11:54, said:

What is the problem with splinters?

Ask mtvesuvius and mgoetze .
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#7 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-July-23, 13:28

View Postmck4711, on 2011-July-23, 12:58, said:

4D-splinter on 2nd bid?

If 2D! ( over the 2C rebid ) is an artificial force (e.g. Bourke's Relay ), then 3D! ( a jump over a forcing bid ) would be high enough to splinter.... a mini-splinter .

But with 5 cards Hts, I'd stick to the 2D! bid to ask about 3 cards Hts first.

Although 2D! is not a GF by itself ( similar to NMF ), but 1 round force, subsequent actions may convert the auction into a GF.

For example there are 2 ways for Responder to bid 3H ( in case he had 6 cards like you asked about ) :
1C - 1H
2C - 3H = invitational

whereas:
1C - 1H
2C - 2D!
2NT - 3H = GF

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Edit:
Now as to which game, if Opener denied 3 cards Ht support, you can always bid Cl afterward:
1C - 1H
2C - 2D! - ( DBL )
2NT - 3C

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2011-July-23, 13:35

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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#8 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2011-July-23, 15:02

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-July-23, 13:28, said:

If 2D! ( over the 2C rebid ) is an artificial force (e.g. Bourke's Relay ), then 3D! ( a jump over a forcing bid ) would be high enough to splinter.... a mini-splinter .


Not necessarily. You might want to have a way to show an invitational 5-5 in the reds. One of rebid 3d, or bid 2d followed by 3d ought to be a GF 5-5, so the other should be invitational? I think 4d is clearly a splinter playing with someone who agreed to splinters (but didn't agree to kickback), but not 3d. In auctions where all your actions are GF, then one level higher than a natural bid is often played as spl (but not universally, even 1s-2c-2d-3h is subject to discussion), but in auctions where there are invitational hands to deal with, it's not the case. One could shuffle bids around (including 2s & 3c rebids) such that 3d could be played as a splinter but you'd need special agreements.

The 2s is a perfectly normal, correct call IMO without agreements, I wouldn't call it "creative solution" like dave, just standard. As for why partner didn't rebid 1nt like a normal person, clearly they are a beginner who hasn't been taught to avoid rebidding 5 cd suits. I've met many of them, that don't rebid 1nt holding 5 cd minor. I guess they feel like it's 2 cds greater length than they could have opened with, so they feel obligated to show it.
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#9 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2011-July-24, 04:16

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-July-23, 13:15, said:

Ask mtvesuvius and mgoetze .


She did. Unfortunately, forum etiquette prevents me from reproducing my answer here.
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#10 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2011-July-24, 04:18

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-July-23, 13:28, said:

If 2D! ( over the 2C rebid ) is an artificial force (e.g. Bourke's Relay ),


This style of post is absolutely inappropriate for the B/I forum. Also the fact that Lurpoa is still allowed to vote is really hurting the integrity of the reputation system.
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#11 User is offline   daveharty 

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Posted 2011-July-24, 05:52

View PostStephen Tu, on 2011-July-23, 15:02, said:

The 2s is a perfectly normal, correct call IMO without agreements, I wouldn't call it "creative solution" like dave, just standard.

You might be right, but I'm impressed when a self-described B/I player goes through a thought process to arrive at the conclusion that the best way to keep the auction under control is to bid a three-card suit. In my experience that's not something that is on most B/I players' radars.

EDIT: Anyway, it seems to me that the most important lesson to be drawn from this hand--and many other hands that get posted in this forum--is that making simple, descriptive bids that describe your hand type leads to better contracts. Had the OP's partner simply bid normally, the OP wouldn't have been in the position of having to "come up with" something. Thinking outside the box is obviously a very useful skill, but should probably be reserved for those hands that can't be adequately described using simple, obvious methods. Having to guess what your partner might have on every single auction can be exhausting.
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#12 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-July-24, 07:26

View Postmgoetze, on 2011-July-24, 04:18, said:

This style of post is absolutely inappropriate for the B/I forum. Also the fact that Lurpoa is still allowed to vote is really hurting the integrity of the reputation system.

Nabbed again by the B&I Police -- who think all B & I's are " brain-dead " ( special thx to Ron [ Hog ] for this quote ).

Edit: Also, special thx to Lurpoa for bringing my "Reputation" into the "green".

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2011-July-24, 07:28

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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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