[mck4711]

How to understand partner's 4NT (I played with an expert, but unfortunately (s)he didnt answer my Q) ?

1) I have Kxx, AQxx, Ax, 10x and I open 1NT (weak NT), partner 2C (Stayman), 2H, 4NT. What does 4NT mean? Asking for aces without trump, asking for aces with H as trump, quantitative? How to answer? (Partner's hand: AQJxx, J98xx, Q10, A)

2) I have x, xx, AKQ109, A109xx and I open 1D, partner 1H, 2C, 2S (I assume, 4th colour forcing), 3C, and now I hear 4NT from my partner. Meaning of this 4NT? (Partner's hand: AKJx, AKQxx, x, Jxx)

[Stephen Tu]

 mck4711, on 2011-July-19, 01:52, said:

How to understand partner's 4NT (I played with an expert, but unfortunately (s)he didnt answer my Q) ?

Expert according to whom? Their self-rating? Don't trust self-ratings on BBO. A very large number of players on BBO who self-rate as experts aren't true experts.

Quote

1) I have Kxx, AQxx, Ax, 10x and I open 1NT (weak NT), partner 2C (Stayman), 2H, 4NT. What does 4NT mean? Asking for aces without trump, asking for aces with H as trump, quantitative? How to answer? (Partner's hand: AQJxx, J98xx, Q10, A)

Following a response to stayman, 4nt by the vast majority of true advanced+ players is played as a quantitative invitation. Basically bid 6NT with a maximum, pass with a minimum. In order to ask for aces (or keycards if RKC), there are two common ways to play, either of which requires some discussion:
1. First set the major as trumps by bidding the other major at the 3 level. 1nt-2c-2h-3s-?-4nt. Over 3s, opener should cue-bid.
2. Bid 4c over the stayman response, played as Gerber.
In a pickup partnership online, either is pretty dangerous to trot out, one is probably better off just guessing, bid 4 or bid 6.

Basically 4nt is quantitative directly over a natural NT bid, and also as the first call after Stayman or a Jacoby transfer. It is only Blackwood (or a advanced blackwood variant e.g. RKC) after a Texas transfer (transfers played at the 4 level, e.g. 1nt-4h-4s-4nt).

Although as it turns out your hands fit excellently, and it's a good slam to be in, I think the sequence indicates a probable misunderstanding as to the notrump range (as well as a misunderstanding of what 4nt ought to mean). It's a bit much to force to slam with partner's hand opposite a weak notrump; it's a more reasonable sequence over a strong notrump, though I don't know if a stayman sequence is really preferable over a transfer sequence. Keep in mind that if playing with a random in the BBO main club, you should probably assume strong (15-17) notrump openings without discussion. Only default to 12-14 if say playing with another Brit and agreeing "Acol". Anybody playing "SA" or "SAYC" will assume 15-17.

Quote

2) I have x, xx, AKQ109, A109xx and I open 1D, partner 1H, 2C, 2S (I assume, 4th colour forcing), 3C, and now I hear 4NT from my partner. Meaning of this 4NT? (Partner's hand: AKJx, AKQxx, x, Jxx)

This is up to partnership agreement. Personally in my partnerships we have the basic agreement that if 4nt could reasonably be construed as quantitative, it is. And on this auction bid 4c to set clubs as trumps.

[Cyberyeti]

1. Quantitative, partner should have splintered 4♣ then asked aces if that was the plan (I don't think his hand is that good, maybe he thought he was facing a strong no trump), what's he supposed to do with a flat 19 count with 4 spades. Much easier for us, we have a bid for 5-5 majors with a mild slam invite and also 4♠ is ace asking over 2♥.

2. Awkward, as it happens, doesn't much matter, you have a huge hand for the auction to date, I'd probably just bid 6N, my club suit isn't good enough to want to bid 6♣ and I don't want to bid 5♥ in case partner thinks I'm showing Hx in a quantitative auction. Again, much simplified if 4♦ was ace asking. Did you think 2♠ was GF ? if it is, then 4N should be clearly quantitative as pard could have bid 4♣ to agree them and 4N later (and many people would say this even if 2♠ is not GF).

Edit: btw you seem to only have 11 cards on hand one, what are the other 2, if both diamonds the slam is not that good.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 The question is, do you have the option to agree the found major in a forcing way.
If you have such an option (a common agreement is to bid 3 of the other major), than
4NT in the given seq. is quantitative, if responder wants to check for KCs, he first
has to make the forcing raise.
In a pickup partnership your guess is as good as mine, but I would assume RKCB.
#2 Again both meanings are useful, ..., the difference to #1 being, that you have found
a fit, sort of, so ..., for us 4NT would be RKCB, but again I think it makes more
sense to play 4NT in this seq. as quantitative as well, although it will be rare,
a delayed 3NT is already showing a strong hand, ...
but in a pickup partnership RKCB is fairly clear cut / mainstream.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[TWO4BRIDGE]

There are treatments for the Structure-over-Stayman.
Here is one populare one:
1NT - 2C
2M - ??

M-fit
3oM! = splinter somewhere; "next step" asks where
4♣! = RKC-Gerber
4♦! = no splinter; artificial invite

NO fit
3m = 4oM / 5+minor, slammish
4NT = 4oM, Quantitative

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That said, here is an old quote from the Manager at OKBridge:
" So for the umpteeth time I will voice my opinion:
With a balanced slam invitational hand, I do not look for a 4-4 major suit fit - I just bid 4NT directly. That is because, as the total number of points a partnership has increases, the trick taking value of the 4-4 fit decreases. "

[han]

I'm quote a few things that I think I've all learned from Justin.

You should play that 1NT - 2C - 2H - 4S is quantitative with 4 spades. If you bid 4NT, you cannot play 4S.

You should reverse the 4C and 4D responses to 2H. 4C becomes the balanced slam try with fit, 4D is RKC. The extra step is more useful after the balanced slam try.

Is the manager at OKbridge a good bridge player? I think that this is a pretty silly quote. (this is my opinion, I didn't get this from Justin)

[mtvesuvius]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-July-19, 08:45, said:

That said, here is an old quote from the Manager at OKBridge:
" So for the umpteeth time I will voice my opinion:
With a balanced slam invitational hand, I do not look for a 4-4 major suit fit - I just bid 4NT directly. That is because, as the total number of points a partnership has increases, the trick taking value of the 4-4 fit decreases. "

That is quite a silly idea, and IMO, extremely bad advice. There is no reason why you cannot need to trump losers even if you have 33 combined HCP.

[pooltuna]

 mtvesuvius, on 2011-July-19, 09:38, said:

That is quite a silly idea, and IMO, extremely bad advice. There is no reason why you cannot need to trump losers even if you have 33 combined HCP.

similarly there is nothing from preventing a 5-0 or 4-1 trump split from crashing your slam while 6NT rolls.

[VM1973]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that one should follow the advice given by Kit Woolsey in his book "Matchpoints."

He recommends that with 26 points you should look for the 4-4 fit in matchpoints because that +20 is important whereas in IMPs you shouldn't automatically do that because the chance of a 4-1 break can cause big IMP swings.

He also pointed out that it's best to Stayman when your hand looks like:

♠AQJx
♥xx
♦Axxx
♣xxx

because you figure if partner fits you with 4 spades, he's also likely to have a doubleton diamond so that makes for good ruffs, whereas if you reverse the diamond and spade holdings it's not as good. He also suggested that if you hold an extra K that it's best to just bid 3NT because there is greater likelihood that your partner has quacks in the way of profitable ruffs.

He also touches on slam hands. It's a good book. I highly recommend it.

[matmat]

 pooltuna, on 2011-July-19, 10:22, said:

similarly there is nothing from preventing a 5-0 or 4-1 trump split from crashing your slam while 6NT rolls.

let's see... i can investigate and make an informed decision, give partner a choice to do so, or I can mastermind the hand. hmmmm

[pooltuna]

 matmat, on 2011-July-19, 10:28, said:

let's see... i can investigate and make an informed decision, give partner a choice to do so, or I can mastermind the hand. hmmmm

and how were you going to find out about the bad trump break? IM? or just peek in your opps hand?

[matmat]

 pooltuna, on 2011-July-19, 10:39, said:

and how were you going to find out about the bad trump break? IM? or just peek in your opps hand?

ask the opps, obviously. they are honest people.

There is nothing precluding us from playing 6N after we have found a major fit and one or both of us particularly like our hands for NT, this should always be a consideration.
Arguing that we shouldn't look for a fit because we might run into a bad break is ridiculous. Using that logic we should never try to play 8 card fits in anything other than NT since we might encounter Hawaii splits.

[pooltuna]

 matmat, on 2011-July-19, 10:51, said:

ask the opps, obviously. they are honest people.

There is nothing precluding us from playing 6N after we have found a major fit and one or both of us particularly like our hands for NT, this should always be a consideration.
Arguing that we shouldn't look for a fit because we might run into a bad break is ridiculous. Using that logic we should never try to play 8 card fits in anything other than NT since we might encounter Hawaii splits.

RE: the first sentence
And this is not masterminding but always just bidding a balanced 33HCP 6NT is?

Do you have a simul that shows that a 44 fit is significantly better than a balanced 33HCP 6NT?

[Cyberyeti]

 han, on 2011-July-19, 09:23, said:

I'm quote a few things that I think I've all learned from Justin.

You should play that 1NT - 2C - 2H - 4S is quantitative with 4 spades. If you bid 4NT, you cannot play 4S.

Or be allowed to bid 1N-2♣-2♥-2♠ then follow up with 4N quantitative unless partner shows spades if you play 2♠ as forcing (as we do), therefore direct 4♠ is just keycard in ♥ for us.

[matmat]

 pooltuna, on 2011-July-19, 11:06, said:

RE: the first sentence
And this is not masterminding but always just bidding a balanced 33HCP 6NT is?

Do you have a simul that shows that a 44 fit is significantly better than a balanced 33HCP 6NT?

Not giving your p a choice when you know one is available, yeah, i think it is masterminding.

do you have a simulation that it isn't?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 han, on 2011-July-19, 09:23, said:

I'm quote a few things that I think I've all learned from Justin.

You should play that 1NT - 2C - 2H - 4S is quantitative with 4 spades. If you bid 4NT, you cannot play 4S.

I think that is an excellent idea.

Quote

You should reverse the 4C and 4D responses to 2H. 4C becomes the balanced slam try with fit, 4D is RKC. The extra step is more useful after the balanced slam try.

I think that is another excellent idea . ( I wish I would have thought of it ).

Quote

Is the manager at OKbridge a good bridge player?

Excellent player.

[helene_t]

A simple rule is that 4NT is RKC if the last bid is a natural suit bid (or if we have already agreed a suit).

Still, it is better to play the first one as quanti. You need a forcing heart raise anyway in case you want to do cuebidding before asking keycards. That forcing raise if 3♠. Then 4NT can be quanti. On the other hand, if you play the Han/Justing method where 4♠ is quanti with four spades then you probably don't need 4NT as quanti also, since a quanti without a 4-card major would have bid 4NT immediately.

The second one I would take as RKC for clubs if undiscussed but there are two reasons why it is probably better to play it as quanti. First, you don't really want ever to use 4NT as RKC for clubs as you can only use it when 5♣ is the only answer that doesn't show enough keycards for slam. Second, you could use 4♣ here to set clubs as trump suit so you don't need RKC that badly, although it is of course better to have a way to ask keycards immediately when that is what you want - making cuebids just because the system requires you to do so gives unnecessary information to the opponents.

[ggwhiz]

 matmat, on 2011-July-19, 11:36, said:

Not giving your p a choice when you know one is available, yeah, i think it is masterminding.

do you have a simulation that it isn't?

My pard and I use a backdoor approach. Probably isn't the best but it maximizes the choice angle.

After a quantitative 4nt, we respond straight Aces when accepting even with a lot of hands that you could just blast on.

Then 5nt is a sign off but most often both partners bid 4-card suits up the line and we know about a 4-4 fit before picking the slam. We open quite a few 5-4's 1nt and have wandered into a 4-4 fit with a 5-3 on the side.

After 4nt if you feel like it, you can jump to 6nt with hands like Woolsey suggests or bid 6 of a 5 (or rarely) 6-card suit.

We don't get them all right but both players are involved in the decision.

[mck4711]

 mck4711, on 2011-July-19, 01:52, said:

How to understand partner's 4NT (I played with an expert, but unfortunately (s)he didnt answer my Q) ?

1) I have Kxx, AQxx, Ax, 10x and I open 1NT (weak NT), partner 2C (Stayman), 2H, 4NT. What does 4NT mean? Asking for aces without trump, asking for aces with H as trump, quantitative? How to answer? (Partner's hand: AQJxx, J98xx, Q10, A)

2) I have x, xx, AKQ109, A109xx and I open 1D, partner 1H, 2C, 2S (I assume, 4th colour forcing), 3C, and now I hear 4NT from my partner. Meaning of this 4NT? (Partner's hand: AKJx, AKQxx, x, Jxx)

**********
Thx to all for the replies.

[Zelandakh]

I am not sure B/I is the right place for the NT methods but, since we are sharing, I like using transfers over 2H...

1NT - 2C - 2H
=============
2S = range ask
2NT = clubs
3C = diamonds
3D = good heart raise
3H = invitational heart raise
3S, 4m = splinters

This approach solves all of the "problem" hands above and some more besides. With a slam invite and spades you rebid 2S and can bid 3S next time. With the balanced slam try or key card ask you can bid 3D - at this stage you could agree 3S as this hand and 3NT as keycard-asking but I think it is far more useful to use the extra space for a full quota of cues, etc. And of course the splinters are direct rather than through 3S; I prefer this for the same reasons as playing 1H - 4C as a splinter rather than, say, Gerber or some form of Swiss.

Getting back to the OP, with a pickup partner 4NT is pretty much always Blackwood over a suit bid. Even if it seems silly. Just accept this and it will help your frustrations of BBO bidding lessen. Here your "expert" opposite has either treated the hearts as a 4 card suit (doubtful) or misbid. In BBO style the 4NT bid here is unambiguous though. Hand 2 is similar, 4NT over a suit so a clear BBO Blackwood. This time partner the suit has been bid twice so it is even more obvious.

Of course agreements like "4NT always Blackwood", or "4NT after a natural suit bid is Blackwood" are classic B/I agreements. The next on the path is "4NT is Blackwood over a natural suit bid if there was no forcing way of raising the suit". Using such an agreement it is clear that 4NT instead of the 4th suit would be natural (4C would be forcing) but what about after 3C? Is 4C a slam try agreeing clubs or a minimum without stopper? Whichever it is, presumably repeating the fourth suit and bidding clubs would show the other hand. But if the forcing raise was via 3S then we cannot gurantee bidding 4C afterwards so we still do not have a forcing raise. I think this is interesting for B/I in as much as it shows how a simple agreement can become a little involved. I think this is also a decent stepping stone towards better agreements where 4NT shows the most useful thing and at the very least it provokes some thought rather than following a rigid rule!