[pclayton]

Scoring: MP

---

MP's - strong opponents. NV vs Vul

CHO....RHO....You....LHO
1♣....2♦....2♥....2♠
3♥....pass....3N....pass
4♥....all pass

2♦ is a weak jump overcall.

Opening lead - diamond 7. Plan the play

[inquiry]

Win Diamond (for once I have trick one 100% correct).

They are vulnerable versus none, and both bidding suits justs headed by K9 at BEST. So I will play EAST for 7 or 8 diamonds, and west for Six spades. Who has the heart ACE? West would not think enough of the club king to feel safe bidding on a two card diamond fit (at best), so he probably has the heart ace. And the club king behind the club bidder would have made east more likley to bid 2D on a ratty suit.

So tentatively, I would assume (and I know this can be wrong)... 6S-2D with WEST, 7D-1S with EAST. If East has CLUB KJ9, I don't think I can make, but I can get the defense to cooperate with me otherwise. At trick two, I lead the eight (maybe he will cover), but rather he does or not, I will win the ace and lead the heart two. If they let me win in dummy, I will lead the CLUB QUEEN or a small CLUB depending upon what happened on the first round of clubs. If EAST played then nine, I will lead low. If West played the nine, I will lead the Queen. IF both played low (so KJ9 are still out). I will have to guess. I suspect that WEST would have liked three hearts and 2 clubs on this auction (to bid 2S) better than 3C and two hearts, so if both played small I will lead the queen.

If I have guessed clubs right (either dropping east doubleton King, or pinning West's doubleton jack), I am home. East can give WEST a club ruff If I pinned the jack ok (hope he ISNT such good competition to drop 9 from J9x..hehehe)... That is two club losers. But now, I simply jettison the spade queen, and I am in control. (not the spade TEN... else he ruffs low, forces you to ruff diamond in dummy, and when you knock out the heart ace, he locks you in your hand). I play for one of these general hands for WEST (you fill East's) (BTW, if east has KJx of clubs, I hope he would have covered the eight)....

S-Kxxxxx H-Axx D-xx C-J9
S-Kxxxxx H-Ax D-xx C-Jxx
S-Kxxxxx H-Axx D-xx C-9x

If East exits a diamond instead of giving his partner a club ruff, well then I am home. If it is the diamond KING, I ruff and my diamnod queen is good, and if it is a low diamond, I win the jack now. IF he leads a spade instead I win the ace and lead a trump. They win but are on the horns of a dilemia. If iether side leads a diamond, I don't ruff and let them take their diamond trikc, but rest are mine. If they lead the spade king (if WEST had doubleton club), I pitch the spade queen ,now I can ruff the diamond, ruff a club high, pull trump, and enter dummy with the jack.

Complicated I guess, and maybe something else here.. but if I placed the legnth and honors correctly from the bidding (that might be a long shot).. this works.. And if they win the first round of turmps? Many lines revert back to the one where they duck, but on one line, I play a spade to the queen, which WEST has to duck to deny a late entry to dummy, but now I can score two diamond ruffs in dummy (one where EAST has doubleton club king)...

Ben

[luke warm]

pclayton, on Sep 22 2004, 09:31 PM, said:

Dealer: N Vul: EW Scoring: MP

♠ J32 ♥ KQ9 ♦ A ♣ QT8732 ♠ AQT ♥ JT862 ♦ QJ3 ♣ A4

MP's - strong opponents. NV vs Vul

CHO....RHO....You....LHO
1♣....2♦....2♥....2♠
3♥....pass....3N....pass
4♥....all pass

Opening lead - diamond 7. Plan the play

there are 14 hcp out... i can't really understand the 2S bid, especially given the vulnerability... i think even a wjo would need a few points (or great suit, which it isn't), vulnerable.. that doesn't leave many for west... so give east 8 hcp and west 6... wow, scary eh?.. wonder what 2S doubled would bring? for a working assumption, i give west the ♠K and the ♣K... west is 6232 and east is 1363.. east has the heart A, diamond K, and J of clubs

anyway, the 'proper' lead is the ♣Q, running it if not covered.. however, that doesn't jive with my take on the hand.. so i agree with ben, lead the ♣8 to induce a cover of some kind... win the ace regardless and play a heart..

the heart is either won or not.. for the rest, i can't come up with anything better than ben's line... there might not be

i really do like the lead of ♣Q from dummy, it's a shame i talked myself out of it... and i'd *really* like to have seen what 2S doubled would have done

[cherdano]

If Spades are 6-1, why didn't RHO lead his singleton spade? I am worried about spades being 7-0.

Arend

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Sep 23 2004, 02:48 AM, said:

If Spades are 6-1, why didn't RHO lead his singleton spade? I am worried about spades being 7-0.

Arend

Might it be because he wasn't on lead? Seems like a reasonable reason not to lead one to me.

[cherdano]

inquiry, on Sep 23 2004, 07:21 AM, said:

cherdano, on Sep 23 2004, 02:48 AM, said:

If Spades are 6-1, why didn't RHO lead his singleton spade? I am worried about spades being 7-0.

Arend

Might it be because he wasn't on lead? Seems like a reasonable reason not to lead one to me.

Aaaargh. Note to self: First coffee, then post.

Ok, assuming West has ♠K and ♥A, now to the play:

Ben, don't some of your lines fail when East has three hearts and leads his singleton spade for ruffs once he is in in clubs? That's another reason for the suit combination play in clubs (lead the club queen), as it keeps East from the lead.

How about running ♥K at trick two? If they win and play another heart, I win in dummy, play ♣Q-K-A and ♣4 to the ten. If West has the club jack, I am home. (If he leads a diamond then, just pitch a spade from dummy.)

If West wins trick two and plays a diamond, I ruff, play club queen to the king and ace, ruff another diamond, and exit with the club ten to West. They cannot get a useful spade ruff this way. Basically the same line works if West returns a spade (ruff diamond, club queen king ace, ruff diamond, club 10).

If they duck, I play two rounds of clubs immediately. To prevent me from running the club suit, West has to try to force dummy with a diamond. I ruff in dummy, and ruff a club in hand, ruff the 2nd diamond in dummy, ruff a 2nd round of clubs, and lead hearts. If West overruffs at any point, he has no useful continuation.

Even if much of this is wrong, I hope this post is an improvement over the previous one...

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Sep 23 2004, 08:00 AM, said:

Ben, don't some of your lines fail when East has three hearts and leads his singleton spade for ruffs once he is in in clubs? That's another reason for the suit combination play in clubs (lead the club queen), as it keeps East from the lead.

I probably didn't express myself well.. I don't actually need a second club trick (of ccouse a lot of my line is based upon establishing one, or threating to establish one). I will be perfectly happy on my line if I can ruff two diamonds in dummy and score a slow second spade trick. (4H + 1C +1D +2Druff + 2S). This is the line I take when EAST grabs the second club (and I assume I know have clubs established as a threat. For him to grab a club, remmember my line has already played one torund of turmps and two rounds of clubs.

Back comes a spade, and I grab the ace, then I ruff a club, To give the ruff some "teeth" we will give him first thee spades to ACE, then three small hearts (so his partner has a trump entry. With three trumps, he had only doubleton club...

When he has the ACE, he can grab it, and lead a spade. I win the ACE, and simply knock out the club king (i could play a round of trumps first, but no matter. HE can not get to his partner hand for the ruff, and in fact, he is basically endplayed when he wins the club king. If he exits a heart I win the rest by pulling trumps ending in dummy. If he exits a low diamond, my QUACK wins and I pull trumps. And if he exits with diamond King, I will enjoy my two off suit queens (ruff in dummy, play last dummy trump, ruff my good club, well overruff it, and knock out the spade king.

So instead give the heart ACE to west. He has to duck first round (as he has no good exit card anyway). Now East wins club king and exits his singleton spade. I win in my hand with ACE, and ruff a diamond and lead the good club Queen. East has to ruff (or I can ruff a diamond and score (2Druff, 2C, 1D, 4H, 1S), I overruff, and exit a heart. They are out of trumps, and west has only spades left, can't deny me an entry to dummy. If he leads a low spade the jack wins, and I take the rest of the tricks. If he cashes the spade King, I unblock the spade queen.

Now, I don't say my line is best, primarily because it is not all that cute (must be something esle)... but this is how I would play at the table because of their vulnerable bidding.

As for your heart king first then a club, that transposes to my line in many cases. I don't however, like leading the club Queen off dummy. That maybe the best line but leading the eight and worring about the nine is jus tin my basic nature.

Ben

Ben

[cherdano]

Why can't East have three clubs and three trumps? That would make him
1-3-6-3, e.g. x-xxx-KT9xxx-KJx

inquiry said:

As for your heart king first then a club, that transposes to my line in many cases. I don't however, like leading the club Queen off dummy. That maybe the best line but leading the eight and worring about the nine is jus tin my basic nature.

Hehe, I thought so, I am just too bad a guesser to play like this But in this case (taking the club king with RHO as given, following your reasoning), leading the queen seems so much better to me -- note that it picks up all holdings with J with West, plus KJx with EAST (without defense mistakes as in your line). Just as good as your line assuming defense mistake in case of KJx _and_ your correct guessing.

inquiry said:

So instead give the heart ACE to west. He has to duck first round (as he has no good exit card anyway). [After club to the ace, Arend] Now East wins club king and exits his singleton spade. I win in my hand with ACE, and ruff a diamond and lead the good club Queen. East has to ruff (or I can ruff a diamond and score (2Druff, 2C, 1D, 4H, 1S), I overruff, and exit a heart.

Aren't you down if East follows to your club Queen? If you discard anything, West can ruff low (assuming he had Axx in trumps), and cash the spade king. If you ruff, he overruffs, cashes spade king, and gives partner a ruff. Your only hope is to discard a spade and hope that West had Ax in trumps.

I agree that in many cases your line and my line will transpose to the same position.

Arend

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Sep 23 2004, 10:17 AM, said:

Why can't East have three clubs and three trumps? That would make him
1-3-6-3, e.g. x-xxx-KT9xxx-KJx

I think vul versus not vul, bidding 2D on a six card suit headed by the KT is probably not something everyone would favor, but it hardly matters to my line. The line we are using works if you guess whcih way to play the club suit honors. So let's put constraints on EAST's clubs, he can have one of the following holdings...

Kx     KJx
KJ     K9x
K9     Kxx
Jx     J9x
9x     9xx
xx     KJ9

I think if he holds KJ9, that is too tough. IF he hold King-JACK doubleton, you can lead any club from dummy. If he holds Kx, you can lead any club but the queen, if he holds Jxx or J9x you had best not lead the queen. If he holds K9x you can lead any club but the Ten, if he holds Kxx, you are back to any club again. When he has 9x, xx, it is best not to lead the queen.

So if he has K9x of clubs and 1-3-6-3, my line still works. It fails if he has KJx of clubs, where leading club Ten ot Queen is required. Rest of guessing discussion stopped.. we all guessing, so.. let's be rewarded when right.

inquiry said:

So instead give the heart ACE to west. He has to duck first round (as he has no good exit card anyway). [After club to the ace, Arend] Now East wins club king and exits his singleton spade. I win in my hand with ACE, and ruff a diamond and lead the good club Queen. East has to ruff (or I can ruff a diamond and score (2Druff, 2C, 1D, 4H, 1S), I overruff, and exit a heart.

Arend said:

Aren't you down if East follows to your club Queen? If you discard anything, West can ruff low (assuming he had Axx in trumps), and cash the spade king. If you ruff, he overruffs, cashes spade king, and gives partner a ruff. Your only hope is to discard a spade and hope that West had Ax in trumps.
Arend

No, I will not be down if EAST follows to the third club, because of this ending. Here is the situation I think you are talking about.

Scoring: IMP

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T1. DA
T2. CA
T3. HK
T4. C-->K
T5. SA
T6. Diamond ruff...

If you are going 1-3-6-3 (three clubs is clearly right when jack falls), You can be fairly sure EAST doesn't have heart ace, for with x Axx KT98xx Kxx he might have overcalled 1D, not 2. So if EAST follows to the top club, you pitch a spade thinking WEST will ruff iwth the heart ACE rather than EAST underbid with 2D. And if east shows out on the club, if he doesn't ruff, great. There is your extra trick already. When WEST ruffs he is hopeless. If he returns low spade for his partner to ruff. You threatent to cross ruff the hand, but if he leads his heart, dummy is good. If he cashes good spade and continues low spade, you criss ruff the hand. If he leads his hypothetical thrid diamond, you ruff in dummy, and now enjoy, 5H, 1D, 2D ruff, 1C, 1S for ten tricks.

Anyway, lhis is all probably wrong, so let's wait to see the cute ending from phil.

Ben

[cherdano]

Sigh. Ben, sometimes I think you don't trust my bridge skills at all, and are thus convinced I am wrong before you even read my replies to the end. About the ending you discuss in great length
I wrote:

Arend said:

Aren't you down if East follows to your club Queen? If you discard anything, West can ruff low (assuming he had Axx in trumps), and cash the spade king. If you ruff, he overruffs, cashes spade king, and gives partner a ruff. Your only hope is to discard a spade and hope that West had Ax in trumps.

You qoute this, and then you explain in great length that you can discard a spade if West started with Ax in trumps. Which is exactly what I wrote above.

About the club layouts:
1. I was only caring about club layouts where East has the king, which I assume from the bidding.
2. My line does works against Kx with RHO, so the only cases where leading the 8 is better are layouts where West has the king. [EDIT: But I am down against KJ.]

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Sep 23 2004, 12:55 PM, said:

Sigh. Ben, sometimes I think you don't trust my bridge skills at all, and are thus convinced I am wrong before you even read my replies to the end. About the ending you discuss in great length
I wrote:

Arend said:

Aren't you down if East follows to your club Queen? If you discard anything, West can ruff low (assuming he had Axx in trumps), and cash the spade king. If you ruff, he overruffs, cashes spade king, and gives partner a ruff. Your only hope is to discard a spade and hope that West had Ax in trumps.

You qoute this, and then you explain in great length that you can discard a spade if West started with Ax in trumps. Which is exactly what I wrote above.

About the club layouts:
1. I was only caring about club layouts where East has the king, which I assume from the bidding.
2. My line does works against Kx with RHO, so the only cases where leading the 8 is better are layouts where West has the king.

No.. i read it.. i am down if east is 1-3-6-3 with three hearts to the ACE, three clubs to the king, and six diamonds. He got me. I did address that in there somewhere... I think I said... "You can be fairly sure EAST doesn't have heart ace, for with x Axx KT98xx Kxx he might have overcalled 1D, not 2." That was me agreeing if he has that hand, my line will fail. If east has 3 clubs to the king and three hearts, I am willing to bet it will be three small hearts. The reason is two fold. First, EAST probably wouldn't bid with that hand, and if he did, his partner probably would not bid holding ♠KTxxxx ♥xx ♦xxx ♣Jx

This holding is possible iwth both opponents making odd bidding choices (I am assumming no one alerted 2S as fit non-jump). But I personally don't believe it is likely at all. Thus, I choose not to pick a play that caters to this pattern.

So, while I didn't disagree with you per se, I didn't make it clear that you are correct if he has that hand I am down. There is no sure 100% line on this one (not that I can see)...even if you quess the location of the missing cards (spade K, diamond King are easy, but heart ACE and club king are, in fact a guess)... And even if you guess the loccation of those two cards, you have to then try to guess who has the third club and rather you should lead the queen or ten from dummy.

If East has KJx of clubs, I will go down. IF East has KJ9 of clubs, we all will go down, if east has any other club holding I am in the game, except a combined shot of Kxx of clubs and The one difficult case is where EAST has three clubs, three small hearts.

As an aside, how can I "not trust" your bridge skills, when I already agreed that our lines are fairly simple transpositions of each other. The only real difference is which club we choose to lead from dummy.

Ben

[cherdano]

Sorry, what I meant you are also down if West has Axx in hearts and East follows to the third club in your line. We are in complete agreement about the likely distribution of honors.

My comment on 1-3-6-3 was only meant as a side remark, and not my assumption during the rest of the post.

[pclayton]

Wow - I was out all of 24 hours - this is a lot to digest.

Lets just say I found a simpler line that only needs 3-2 hearts (I think). I'll get back to you on this.

[pclayton]

---

Ben's estimation of the K♣ in East and the A♥ in West seems logical with the bidding.

How I actually played the hand:

1. A♦
2. ♥9 to 10......

Now West is in a dilemma. If he ducks, I get a 2nd entry to ruff another diamond (but see continuation below). So he wins. A spade is out, and so is a club, since the suit is frozen. He ended up playing a diamond, which caused me no pain;

3. ♦, Q♥
4. A♣
5. ♦, K♥
6. A♠
7. Trump and claim

But lets say he continues a heart at T3. My best reply is Q♣, covered which I must duck, else a diamond comes from the wrong side of the table. On this layout, East has no more hearts to play, so has to play a spade. A♠, A♣, trump to the board gets me home.

If the 10♥ is ducked; the hand still gets a little hairy:

1. A♦
2. ♥9 to 10 (winning)
3. J♦, ruff with the ♥Q
4. Club to Ace (? - using a chess term here LOL)...
5. Q♦, ruff with the K♥

Now I can't get off the board without promoting a trump trick with LHO's 7. Can I improve?

1. A♦
2. ♥9 to 10 (winning)
3. J♦, ruff with the ♥Q
4. Q♣, covered and won
5. Q♦, ruff with the K♥....now Im home; no entry for the uppercut in east.

Honestly, I still need to digest all the comments, but I wanted to share the actual hand with you first.

Bens and the other respondent's brains work at a process faster and more efficiently than mine, so I'll give you my honest answer on what line I think is best in retrospect.

[Fluffy]

Good work mate, I just wonder... why do you call partner center hand opponent? :-)