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Maximal doubles 2/1 ACBL

#1 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2011-May-30, 17:22

Bidding goes : 1-2-2 - double

Playing maximal doubles is this a club raise?
I say no. I thought maximal double needs to be made by one initiating

Can not be penalty double, I believe.
Should be responsive double for hearts /diamonds.

Advancer could bid 3 and then partner would have to act to get to game
OR Advancer might bid 3to see if partner interested

HELP
and THANK YOU for opinions
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#2 User is offline   kayin801 

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Posted 2011-May-30, 18:34

This X is 150% +

To clarify, I play maximal doubles on when we have:
- Established a fit
- Have no room to make a game try with another bid. Typically this occurs in an auction like 1-(2)-2-(3)-?. Now X is a maximal double and a game try, while 3 is merely competitive.
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#3 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2011-May-30, 23:23

Maximal Double is used by the side that opens. Also called Maximal Overcall Double.
It means that Dbl is a game try when there is no room to make other game tries (no room without forcing our side beyond 3 of our major)

It is best to stick with the terminology that exists, and not start using the convention name for other purposes.
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#4 User is offline   jh51 

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Posted 2011-May-31, 12:23

View Postkayin801, on 2011-May-30, 18:34, said:

This X is 150% +

To clarify, I play maximal doubles on when we have:
- Established a fit
- Have no room to make a game try with another bid. Typically this occurs in an auction like 1-(2)-2-(3)-?. Now X is a maximal double and a game try, while 3 is merely competitive.


I totally agree that this is not a maximal double.

Whether thsi shows and would depend upon your agreements. Therefore I would not agree that it is 150%.

If you have agreed to play responsive doubles, I would totally agree.

I would doubt that anyone would play this as penalty, but if that was your agreement, that is your agreement.

I recently learned of a convention called "stolen cuebid double", and if that were your agreement the double would show a hand where you would have cue bid 2 had that bid been available to you.

Lacking an agrement, I would assume that it is responsive.
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#5 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-May-31, 13:41

Responsive doubles have priority over maximal doubles, as being able to find fits is more important than being precise about what level you play. Maximal doubles are only when you have confirmed a fit for that reason (then finding the right level is the priority).
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#6 User is offline   Bende 

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Posted 2011-June-01, 02:12

View PostJLOGIC, on 2011-May-31, 13:41, said:

Responsive doubles have priority over maximal doubles, as being able to find fits is more important than being precise about what level you play. Maximal doubles are only when you have confirmed a fit for that reason (then finding the right level is the priority).


Justin, do you think it is silly to use double as a "cuebid double"? It seems it could be useful in many cases to differentiate the strength in the raise of partners suit but what to do when you need a responsive double in that case, I don't know.
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#7 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-June-01, 03:55

Yes I do, I'd rather guess to go low with 3C or cuebid 3M with a good hand for clubs, and have a bid for a responsive X, than be more precise with a good hand a fit. My view is:

-With a responsive double, not being able to bid is very bad. A responsive X is quite common, and being able to compete and find your heart fits (and maybe diamond fits) is very important. Having nothing to do with that hand type seems like a disaster.

-With a good hand and a fit, maybe ~50 % of the time I'll guess right anyways. At least I'm not left with no bid on a common hand type.


And more generally, as I said, finding fits in a competitive auction and competing is more important than being precise on what level to play.


After a 2H overcall over a spade, I'd use 2N as a good raise and X as responsive, since I think a natural 2N is the least useful there. However, after 2m, I think a natural 2N is quite useful (you're often going to play 3N if you have a game, and rightsiding is important), so I prefer to just guess what to do. Usually imo you should go low when they open and raise, though that is not guaranteed to work obviously.
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#8 User is offline   Bende 

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Posted 2011-June-01, 05:20

View PostJLOGIC, on 2011-June-01, 03:55, said:

Yes I do, I'd rather guess to go low with 3C or cuebid 3M with a good hand for clubs, and have a bid for a responsive X, than be more precise with a good hand a fit.


Thanks! How about after for example (1) - 1 - (3). A responsive double is still more important that being able to show a good raise?
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#9 User is offline   Lurpoa 

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Posted 2011-June-02, 09:34

View Postdickiegera, on 2011-May-30, 17:22, said:

Bidding goes : 1-2-2 - double

Playing maximal doubles is this a club raise?
I say no. I thought maximal double needs to be made by one initiating

Can not be penalty double, I believe.
Should be responsive double for hearts /diamonds.

Advancer could bid 3 and then partner would have to act to get to game
OR Advancer might bid 3to see if partner interested

HELP
and THANK YOU for opinions




"Maximim" doubles are not part of SAYC or of BWS2001, but I think it is sound to play this double for take-out (here, for the reds) or showing general values if responder made a double raise.

It is as such that it is defined by the BWS2001 defaults.

Bob Herreman
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#10 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-June-02, 14:23

View PostBende, on 2011-June-01, 05:20, said:

Thanks! How about after for example (1) - 1 - (3). A responsive double is still more important that being able to show a good raise?


Absolutely
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#11 User is offline   jmcw 

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Posted 2011-June-02, 17:07

[quote name='dickiegera' timestamp='1306797764' post='550064']
Bidding goes : 1-2-2 - double

Playing maximal doubles is this a club raise?
I say no. I thought maximal double needs to be made by one initiating


A Maximal Overcall Double is a type of competative double used to INVITE game when the bidding has become crowded. Specifically, The opponents will be competing in the suit immediately below your Major suit (hence maximal) at the 3 level.

Here the DBL is maximal since no other bid is available to make a game try...3 is just competing.

Here the DBL is penalty! (some will no doubt disagree) since the conventional call of 3 is available as a general game try and once again 3 is just competing. I'm sure many will expand the meaning of a maximal double to include this example, but I think a more accurate description would be OBAR or some such agreement.


In your example many will play it as a responsive DBL (showing the unbid suits). A responsive DBL is when your side overcalls OR doubles an opening bid AND opener's partner raises the suit.

Here you would be showing BOTH majors with limited values.

Here you are showing the red suits often 5/5
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#12 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-June-02, 19:44

View Postjmcw, on 2011-June-02, 17:07, said:

[
Here you would be showing BOTH majors with limited values.



Axx KJx xxxx QTx or Axx Kx xxxx Qxxx or Axx Kxx xxx Qxxx I'd double with all of this. But i agree in general with everything else you said.
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#13 User is offline   Lurpoa 

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Posted 2011-June-03, 04:49

I have done some internet search on "Maximal Double".
There seem to be many variations around.
This is also clear from all the responses to this treath.
So, yes, it is very important to agree on all the sequences with your partner.

Bob Herreman
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#14 User is offline   Lurpoa 

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Posted 2011-June-05, 00:36

To be more precise.


In BWS2001 Maximal overcall doubles are played by the opening side, after an overcall in the suit ranking one below the the opened suit, a single raise by responder, and a single raise by advancer.

Bob Herreman
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