[kenrexford]

♠Kx ♥AKxx ♦Axxxx ♣Jx

Playing Standard American, your partner opens 1♠ and you bid 2♦. Partner jumps to 3♠.

Stupid SA somewhat forces this jump call too often, which is why I prefer 2/1. But, I was not playing 2/1.

In Standard American, can I bid 4♥ as a cue in support here? Does anyone know?

[dustinst22]

Wouldn't this be a question of partnership agreements more than whether or not you play standard american?

I mean logically in any natural system this would have to be a cue bid with slam interest and 3♠ setting trumps , wouldn't it?

[1eyedjack]

I can't think of any interpretation of 4H *other* than a cue in support of Spades - or at least some sort of slam going move in support of Spades (seems odd that he could have a co-operative hand and not make a cheaper slam try - yeah even 4D, although if you are committing to at least 5S anyway there may be inferences about the ordering)

[Echognome]

1eyedjack, on 2011-April-22, 12:09, said:

I can't think of any interpretation of 4H *other* than a cue in support of Spades - or at least some sort of slam going move in support of Spades (seems odd that he could have a co-operative hand and not make a cheaper slam try - yeah even 4D, although if you are committing to at least 5S anyway there may be inferences about the ordering)

I can think of another interpretation. Suppose opener is 6=3=1=3 with good spades and we are 0=5=6=2. How do we get to our heart fit?

♠ AKJTxx
♥ xxx
♦ x
♣ AKx

♠ ---
♥ AKxxx
♦ KQTxxx
♣ xx

[JLOGIC]

I think it should be a cue. No idea if it is defined as such by standard american though.

[helene_t]

I am confused. What is "Standard American"? Lawrence calls his system Standard American. In SAYC, 2♠ is forcing so it's not like the system forces you to jump to 3♠ with a mediocre suit.

Was "SA" some pre-SAYC system where 1♠-2♣-2♠ wasn't forcing?

[1eyedjack]

Echognome, on 2011-April-22, 12:29, said:

Suppose opener is 6=3=1=3 with good spades and we are 0=5=6=2. How do we get to our heart fit?

You don't. You give up on freak situations in favour of the humdrum. Or you play more sophisticated methods than standard american if you want to cope with freak hands accurately.

[Echognome]

Please understand that I was not making an opinion on whether such a treatment was optimal (or more likely), but rather that a reasonable alternative option was viable.

For what it's worth, I would take it as a cue. Not trying to be difficult, just stating that alternative views are reasonable.

[blackshoe]

What is "Standard American"? Is it an evolving system, or is the system description frozen in time somewhere (and if so, where)? If it's an evolving system, has it evolved to the point where a GF 2/1 response is part of it, as Hardy maintained? If it's frozen, is it a four card major system or a five card major system?

One thing I'm pretty sure of: SAYC is not "Standard American".

[matmat]

Standard American is a lot like American Standard; everyone has their own model.

[1eyedjack]

blackshoe, on 2011-April-22, 17:52, said:

What is "Standard American"? Is it an evolving system, or is the system description frozen in time somewhere (and if so, where)? If it's an evolving system, has it evolved to the point where a GF 2/1 response is part of it, as Hardy maintained? If it's frozen, is it a four card major system or a five card major system?

One thing I'm pretty sure of: SAYC is not "Standard American".

Without wishing to tie mysyelf up too much in philosophical knots, and proceeding on the assumption that it evolves, I was wondering whether Standard American is defined by (1) what most americans play, or (2) what most americans think is Standard American. If (2) applies then it may well lag behind (1) and may be closer to SAYC than you think.

[y66]

Doesn't 3S show a hand that would rather play in 4S opposite a hand with 10+ HCPs and a singleton spade than in 4H opposite a hand with 10+ HCPs and 4 hearts?

If so, 4H must be a cue bid in support of spades. If you have some 05+6+? hand that plans to bid again over 4S you might well have bid 3D over 1S, esp. if playing with someone who doesn't know SA.

[1eyedjack]

y66, on 2011-April-23, 14:15, said:

If you have some 05+6+? hand that plans to bid again over 4S you might well have bid 3D over 1S, esp. if playing with someone who doesn't know SA.

To make a jump shift response on a 2-suited hand is a cardinal sin. Even opposite someone who doesn't know SA. Unless one of your two suits is that in which partner opened, of course.

[y66]

Jump shifting with a 2-suited hand is a cardinal sin? Yup. I see why that is so bad.

[han]

Don't we have a clear 5C exclusion?