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Do We Ever Find Heart Fit Here?

#1 User is offline   gurgistan 

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Posted 2011-April-20, 04:00



Partner is a random unknown. I read his profile. We are playing 2/1.

Do we ever find the 8-card heart fit here?

I can't see beyond bidding 3N.
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#2 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-April-20, 04:48

1S-1N-3H-3S-4H-p on this hand. 3N is a very bad bid.

But, you are right, it is a general problem that the jumpshift to 3H can be 4 or 5 so sometimes a 5-3 fit is missed when partner has a 3N bid. A "common" treatment around here is to use an artificial 1S-1N-3C bid as clubs, or a jump shift with 4 hearts, or a spade 1 suiter, so that 1S-1N-3H can be 5. Without artificiality, you have to live with missing your fit sometimes I guess.
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#3 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-April-20, 05:04

3NT says "I don't care about your spades! I don't care about your hearts! we're playing here!"

you have an almost-fit in spades and an almost-fit in hearts, and you don't have a club stopper and the diamond stopper is a little suit-oriented.

so 3NT is a bad bid. 3 is just waiting. that's what you should do.
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#4 User is offline   gurgistan 

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Posted 2011-April-20, 05:39

Thanks guys!

I think I get it.

3 is the bid as with his strong jump shift, I would bid 4 with 3-card support so 3 shows only 2-card support and Partner should not go to 4, he would bid 3N and we are right-sided.

Also, the conclusion seems to be that 4 cannot be found without some prior agreed method for this spot.
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#5 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-April-20, 05:44

View Postgurgistan, on 2011-April-20, 05:39, said:



Also, the conclusion seems to be that 4 cannot be found without some prior agreed method for this spot.


Huh? Over 3S, partner would bid 4H, showing 5-5, which you would pass.
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#6 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-April-20, 08:34

View Postgurgistan, on 2011-April-20, 05:39, said:

Thanks guys!

you're welcome, but..

Quote

I think I get it.

I'm afraid not :(

Quote


3 is the bid as with his strong jump shift, I would bid 4 with 3-card support so 3 shows only 2-card support

No. Some people like to bid 4 with 3 spades but 10-12 points, but it's probably not standard. Just bid 3 with 2-3 spades, and sometimes you will have to bid 3 even with a singleton. It's a waiting bid.

Quote

and Partner should not go to 4, he would bid 3N and we are right-sided.

As JLOGIC above said, no, he wouldn't. He would bid 4 with 6-4 or 4 with 5-5, so in this case he would bid 4.

Quote



Also, the conclusion seems to be that 4 cannot be found without some prior agreed method for this spot.

JLOGIC covered this well.
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#7 User is offline   gurgistan 

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Posted 2011-April-20, 11:18

I love this game. There is so much to learn.

I am indebted to all who replied.
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#8 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-April-20, 14:40

View PostJLOGIC, on 2011-April-20, 04:48, said:

A "common" treatment around here is to use an artificial 1S-1N-3C bid as clubs, or a jump shift with 4 hearts, or a spade 1 suiter, so that 1S-1N-3H can be 5.


Justin, i did not know this and liked it. How does it go after 3 ? Does responder relay ?
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#9 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-April-20, 15:03

http://justinlall.wo...9/04/04/hearts/

oh I thought there were more details. anyway nice explanatory post
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#10 User is offline   Quantumcat 

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Posted 2011-April-20, 17:33

It could go

1 - 1NT
3 - 3
4 - Pass
I Transfers
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#11 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-April-20, 17:38

View PostMrAce, on 2011-April-20, 14:40, said:

Justin, i did not know this and liked it. How does it go after 3 ? Does responder relay ?


Responder asks with 3D, but should be careful to remember to bid 3H rather than 3D if he has 5+ hearts. This is so he can still get to hearts opp 5314/6304/5305, and also if partner has a 1 suiter in spades with 3 hearts and hearts is right.
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#12 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2011-April-21, 06:38

1-1NT
2NT

GF balanced or 5+4 red, 3 asks.

Pretty simple.

You can also throw in the 6+ spades GF hand if you need to.
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#13 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2011-April-23, 06:04

or
1S - 1NT
3C = game forcing with diamonds
3D = game forcing with hearts
3H = 5-5 invitational
3S = game forcing with spades

(good hands with clubs start with 2C, which is multi-way and forcing)
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#14 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2011-April-25, 15:14

Hi,

With the given hand, you can bid 4H over the 3NT response,
that will show at least show 5-5, the justification being
the concentration of values.

If you play some art. stuff after the forcing NT, it should
be possible to show the 5-5 pattern.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#15 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-April-25, 17:20

View Postgurgistan, on 2011-April-20, 04:00, said:



Partner is a random unknown. I read his profile. We are playing 2/1.

Do we ever find the 8-card heart fit here?

I can't see beyond bidding 3N.

Here is an interesting suggestion by straube for the sequence
1S - 1NT!, 3H - ?? from Feb, 2010:

http://www.bridgebas...-to-jump-shift/

He uses 3S! ( by Responder ) as a relay so he can have 2-ways to make 4-level bids :

1S-1N, 3H-3S!, 3N! ( asks for more info ) - ??
.....4C-two-fit in spades
..........4H-5/5
.....4D-medium hand for hearts
.....4H-weak hand for hearts

1S-1N, 3H-3S!, ??
.....4C-7/4 ( I think he meant this as 7/5 )
.....4D-6/5
.....4H-5/5 stronger ( than above 4H = 5/5 )
.....

1S-1N, 3H- ??
.....3N-good hand, no fit
.....4m-good hand, minor
.....4M-good hand, major
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#16 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2011-April-25, 17:42

View PostJLOGIC, on 2011-April-20, 17:38, said:

Responder asks with 3D, but should be careful to remember to bid 3H rather than 3D if he has 5+ hearts. This is so he can still get to hearts opp 5314/6304/5305, and also if partner has a 1 suiter in spades with 3 hearts and hearts is right.


A tweak that I play is that responder can skip the relay with 3 spades (3 over 3 is limit, 4 is the junk raise / semi-psyche). Therefore, if responder gives delayed preference, opener knows its based on doubleton support.
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#17 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2011-April-25, 17:55

View Postgurgistan, on 2011-April-20, 04:00, said:



Partner is a random unknown. I read his profile. We are playing 2/1.

Do we ever find the 8-card heart fit here?

I can't see beyond bidding 3N.


Your partner should bid 3S over 3H. You have an obvious 4H bid.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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