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Push to slam?

#1 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2011-March-30, 04:22


Was opening 1 okay?
Would you raise to 6?
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#2 User is offline   pio_magic 

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Posted 2011-March-30, 05:12

I would have considered 2. When partner raises not having any values there, he should have help elsewhere so slam should be laydown or not worse than a finesse. So I'd go for it...

Peter
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2011-March-30, 09:13

View PostAntrax, on 2011-March-30, 04:22, said:


Was opening 1 okay?
Would you raise to 6?

What do you expect partner to have ? And SA or 2/1 (ie what's the upper limit on 1N).

For you is 5 weaker than 4 here.

Worst hand partner can have ?

x, xxxx, J10xxxx, KQ in which case you'll struggle to make 5 on a heart lead if spades aren't 4-3.

No law against xx, xx, J10xxxx, Axx in which case 7 is excellent.

Realistically if partner doesn't have 4+ bad hearts, you're in with a good chance even if he's minimum, x, xx, xxxxxx, xxxx is potentially sufficient to make 6.
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#4 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2011-March-30, 09:52

In standard bidding, the 3 bid could have been a fragment. So, for partner to bid 5 he must have LONG diamonds. He should also have short spades, since your 3 bid could be based on a strong hand with long spades. Furthermore, for the jump to game, it seems that he thinks that his hand is unsuitable for slam, so there is virtually no chance that he has the A or any useful holding in spades or hearts.

Given all of this, it is unlikely (perhaps not impossible) that you will catch partner with the right hand for 12 tricks. He should have no A and at least 3 hearts.

Even thinking about a grand slam is an overbid. Partner should not have the A for his 5 call.

I would pass 5.

By the way, I think that the 1 opening is absolutely correct.
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#5 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2011-March-30, 09:58

We play Standard American, so 1NT would be 6-10, not forcing.
Not sure I see how 7 is good in the second example, where does the heart loser go? On a long spade?

At the table, I took 5 as a sign-off, 4 would have been more interested in slam-hunting. I believed partner and passed, and he tabled
Qx, Txxx, JTxxx, AQ

With which I'm not sure why he'd sign off (maximum, ace, honor in my suit), but I'm trying to figure out if I could know to raise to 6 looking at my hand alone.
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#6 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2011-March-30, 10:32

View PostAntrax, on 2011-March-30, 09:58, said:

We play Standard American, so 1NT would be 6-10, not forcing.
Not sure I see how 7 is good in the second example, where does the heart loser go? On a long spade?

At the table, I took 5 as a sign-off, 4 would have been more interested in slam-hunting. I believed partner and passed, and he tabled
Qx, Txxx, JTxxx, AQ

With which I'm not sure why he'd sign off (maximum, ace, honor in my suit), but I'm trying to figure out if I could know to raise to 6 looking at my hand alone.


Your partner has played with too many people who pass 1:1N 3:4 , he has an easy 4 bid.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2011-March-30, 10:34

View PostAntrax, on 2011-March-30, 09:58, said:

We play Standard American, so 1NT would be 6-10, not forcing.
Not sure I see how 7 is good in the second example, where does the heart loser go? On a long spade?


On the long spade, cold if spades 4-2 or better and trumps 2-1, or spades 3-3 and trumps 3-0.

Quote

At the table, I took 5 as a sign-off, 4 would have been more interested in slam-hunting. I believed partner and passed, and he tabled
Qx, Txxx, JTxxx, AQ

With which I'm not sure why he'd sign off (maximum, ace, honor in my suit), but I'm trying to figure out if I could know to raise to 6 looking at my hand alone.


He's shown a similar same hand with the jack instead of the ace of clubs, as it is his hand is massive. 5 would be very low on my list with that hand, as much as anything else, it's possible you'll score better in spades or have 3 top losers in diamonds (AKJxx, xxx, AKQx, K is plausible).

Would you read 4 as natural or a cue over 3 ? If a cue it fits well, I can bid 4 over 4 which partner can pass with a heart holding he doesn't like.
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#8 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2011-March-30, 10:48

My rule of thumb is that if I can imagine a hand consistent with the bidding that makes slam decent in under 10 seconds to go for it.

Since we are unlikely to both be short in clubs, the K and Q in pards hand is usually enough so I bid it.

I do play that 4 is stronger than 5 in this auction but only because our jump shifts are 100% game forcing.

Unless I'm mistaken in standard the jump shift shows a very good hand but is not even forcing ie if pard has something like x, KQxx, xxx, xxxxx

Anyway, I can understand your partners thinking and a brief discussion will fix your methods as above or you will have to open 2 with hands like this.
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#9 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2011-March-30, 10:49

I probably would have bid on over 5... AKxxx is the dream spade holding, and I think slam will certainly have play, if not make quite often.

Of course partner should bid 4 on his actual hand, but facing plenty of real 5 bids I think slam is good.
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#10 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-March-30, 14:17

Definitely don't pass 5D!
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#11 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2011-March-30, 16:44

6D is just right according to Goldilocks. A simulation had 5D being the limit only 18% of the time, and 7 making 14% of the time. So, although you are more likely to go off than make an overtrick, six seems middle of the road.
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#12 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-March-30, 23:11

Uh oh SIMULATIONS. What constraints did you put on the 5D bid?
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#13 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2011-March-31, 01:07

So what about my hand says I should push past partner's sign-off? He does know my distribution and HCP range.
[edit]
Actually, I'm pretty surprised by how unanimous the agreement to go to 6 is, considering that on the actual layout, even ignoring that spades were 1-5, on a heart lead I make 5 (unless spades are 3-3), and even that thanks to partner having the A.
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#14 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-March-31, 01:31

View PostAntrax, on 2011-March-30, 04:22, said:



You hold ( from post 5 ):
Qx, Txxx, JTxxx, AQ

Partner has made a GF bid with a 2-suiter.
If you have 4+ cards in the 2nd suit ( the minor ), there are 4 unused bids bids BELOW 5m.
Use them as "key card showing" in support of the minor ( pre-ageement of course ):
You have agreements for the 5 bids :
3S
4S
3H ( other Major )
3NT and probably
4C ( other minor )

That leaves 4 unused bids BELOW 5D:
4D! ( 4m ) = 0 ( or 3 improbable )
4H!( 4oM ) = 1 ( or 4 impossible )
4NT! = 2 - Q
5C! = 2 + Q

Certainly, 4H!( 1 key ) would allow partner to make a better decision than the 5D "closeout" bid .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Note: All of the four 1M - 1NT - 3m sequences have 4 "unused" bids BELOW 5m .
For example: 1H - 1NT - 3D has 4 similar "unused" bids below 5D ( similar to the above case ):
4D! ( 4m ) = 0
4S!( 4oM ) = 1
4NT! = 2 - Q
5C! = 2 + Q

Likewise: the two 1M - 1NT - 3C sequences have 4 similar "unused" bids BELOW 5C :
4C! ( 4m ) = 0
4D! = 1
4oM! = 2 - mQ
4NT = 2 + mQ
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#15 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2011-March-31, 01:46

What's wrong with raising the minor to the four-level, leaving room for cue-bids or RKCB?
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#16 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-March-31, 07:10

View PostAntrax, on 2011-March-31, 01:46, said:

What's wrong with raising the minor to the four-level, leaving room for cue-bids or RKCB?

Nothing wrong with it here:
p - 1S
1NT - 3D
4D - 4H
4S ( I presume the Q in partner's 1st suit is worth a cue ) - 4NT
5D ( 1 key ) - ... but really not much room for a grand slam probe ...
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( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#17 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2011-March-31, 10:59

View PostJLOGIC, on 2011-March-30, 23:11, said:

Uh oh SIMULATIONS. What constraints did you put on the 5D bid?

That partner had <3 spades, 6-7 points and 4-5 diamonds. A bit lazy I know, and I assumed with a better hand the player would bid 4D. When partner has the KQ of clubs it often went off, as DF unerringly led a heart
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#18 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-March-31, 11:45

View Postlamford, on 2011-March-31, 10:59, said:

That partner had <3 spades, 6-7 points and 4-5 diamonds. A bit lazy I know, and I assumed with a better hand the player would bid 4D. When partner has the KQ of clubs it often went off, as DF unerringly led a heart

Declarer still has slim chance ... with the Q x in the dummy.
Draw trump and pitch dummy's three losers if split 3-3 .
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

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