[straube]

1H shows 10-15 and 5 hearts.
1H-2D is a constructive heart raise. We can't show diamonds
1H-2C is a GF relay that handles everything without 5 spades or a super heart fit.

1H-2C, 2D denies 4 spades and includes 5332s and 54m22s and other more distributional hands. Our 2H bid asks clarification.

At this point in the auction, opener is very likely to be balanced and we have an opportunity for relay breaks.

1H-2C, 2D-2S on up are vacant. I want to use this space for reverse relays (opener asks)

The problem is we can only show 21 things by 3N. What ought we to show?

Examples....5/5 minors? shortness in spades? shortness in hearts? single-suited?

[wclass___]

I find that relays really start to shine only if you can get get shape till 3♦. You want to ask for controls (if you are using shape-controls-spiral scan or its modification) below 3NT. Auto control answers help here..e.g

2N(relay)

---3♣ 1st shape
---3♦ 2nd shape
---3♥ 3rd shape and 3 controls
---3♠ 3rd shape and 4 controls
---3NT 3rd shape and 5 controls
---...


What i did to use relays after 1M is split hands in relay-able/not relay-able, so 1♥-1N®-2♦=says to partner 'my shape is not very common, maybe you want to switch to natural bidding or w/e'... partner can now bid 2♥=i have heart fit and we are safe.. or i have very strong hand i want to relay.

[straube]

 wclass___, on 2011-March-31, 11:49, said:

I find that relays really start to shine only if you can get get shape till 3♦. You want to ask for controls (if you are using shape-controls-spiral scan or its modification) below 3NT. Auto control answers help here..e.g

2N(relay)

---3♣ 1st shape
---3♦ 2nd shape
---3♥ 3rd shape and 3 controls
---3♠ 3rd shape and 4 controls
---3NT 3rd shape and 5 controls
---...


What i did to use relays after 1M is split hands in relay-able/not relay-able, so 1♥-1N®-2♦=says to partner 'my shape is not very common, maybe you want to switch to natural bidding or w/e'... partner can now bid 2♥=i have heart fit and we are safe.. or i have very strong hand i want to relay.

I don't think we have enough room for full relays with exact shape and controls. I'm thinking more like...

1H-2C, 2D

2S-six clubs
.....2N-asks
..........3C-bal
..........3D-spade short
..........3H-heart short
..........3S-club short
2N-5/5 minors
.....3C-asks
..........3D-spade short
..........3H-heart short
3C-six diamonds, bal
3D-six diamonds, spade short
3H-six diamonds, heart short
3S-six diamonds, club short

But I think we could do a lot better than this. I think also that we have 3N and the 4-level to play with.

[straube]

1H-2C, 2D....

2S-unspecified 6cd minor
.....2N-asks
..........3C-clubs
..............3D-asks
...................3H-1336 etc
...................3S-3136
...................3N-3316
..........3D-1336
..........3H-3136
..........3S-3316
2N-4D/5C
.....3C-asks
..........3D-1246
..........3H-3145
3C-5D/5C
.....3D-asks
..........3H-1255
..........3S-2155
3D-1264
3H-2164

I like to be able to show major suit shortness. Shortness in partner's major seems only valuable for slam-going hands. But not showing shortness in partner's major lets partner find 6-2 and 5-2 major suit games.

Thoughts? awm?

[Free]

I play something similar (2♦ shows minimum without 4OM), and we use 1M-2♣-2♦-2♠ as a balanced GF raise, around 14-17(18)HCP. With less we would've bid something else before, with more we are likely to just continue the relays. After this, opener can quickly signoff or show a distributional hand with light slam interest. Shortness or 5-5 distributions can be very useful and opener hasn't told us anything about shape, while responder is known to be balanced and can evaluate his hand for a distributional slam. It's particulary useful to bid quickly with 2 balanced hands with a combined strength just below slam interest, because both opener and responder don't tell much about their shape and exact strength.

Note however that we are able to show ♣ and ♦ naturally, so we don't need to use 2♠ and higher as relay breaks to show that many possibilities. If we break relays (except 2♠ here), it means our ♣s were natural.

[straube]

 Free, on 2011-April-01, 02:12, said:

I play something similar (2♦ shows minimum without 4OM), and we use 1M-2♣-2♦-2♠ as a balanced GF raise, around 14-17(18)HCP. With less we would've bid something else before, with more we are likely to just continue the relays. After this, opener can quickly signoff or show a distributional hand with light slam interest. Shortness or 5-5 distributions can be very useful and opener hasn't told us anything about shape, while responder is known to be balanced and can evaluate his hand for a distributional slam. It's particulary useful to bid quickly with 2 balanced hands with a combined strength just below slam interest, because both opener and responder don't tell much about their shape and exact strength.

Note however that we are able to show ♣ and ♦ naturally, so we don't need to use 2♠ and higher as relay breaks to show that many possibilities. If we break relays (except 2♠ here), it means our ♣s were natural.

Well, we kind of do that. 1H-2C, 2D-2H, 3C shows a balanced (5332) hand and responder often just bids 3N.

Using a relay break of 1H-2C, 2D-2S for a medium balanced hand could be useful, but then we have to memorize another relay structure. At the point of 2D, responder can have 5332, 5m, or 4C.

[Zelandakh]

I had a think about what you might try to achieve with reverse relays here. Very few hand types are going to play better this way than simple relaying. Aside from the usual answer from me of stopper asks, which I know you are not a fan of, I can only think of 2 hand types that really benefit given that Opener and Responder are both reasonably well defined...

1...Hands with 3 hearts that prefer a natural auction, of which there are 2 types
1a...Hands that want a cue + KKC auction, perhaps because they have 2 quick losers in a side suit
1b...Hands with 3 hearts and shortage (splinter)

and
2...Hands that want to emphasise one or both minors, again 2 types
2a...A long minor with partial heart fit, aiding in cog/cos decisions
2b...Hands that want to get both minors into the picture, possibly but not always with partial heart fit

My suggestion for a structure is thus...

1H - 2C
2D - ...

2H = relay
2S = 5-5 minors or 6+ diamonds and 4 clubs
2N = 6+ clubs and 4 diamonds
3C = 6+ clubs and 2-3 hearts
3D = 6+ diamonds and 2-3 hearts
3H = sets hearts and starts a cue auction
higher bids show shortage, except perhaps 3NT (use your system's usual style)

=======
1H - 2C
2D - 2S
2N = asks

3C = 5-5 minors (3D asks, 0=3=5=5 is impossible and can be removed from relays)
3D = 6+ diamonds, 4 clubs, 0-1 hearts
3H = 1=2=6=4
3S = 0=2=7=4

=======
1H - 2C
2D - 2N
3C = asks

3D = 6+ clubs, 4 diamonds, 0-1 hearts
3H = 1=2=4=6
3S = 0=2=4=7

=======
1H - 2C
2D - 3C
3D = asks

3H = 2 hearts
others = 3 hearts

=======
1H - 2C
2D - 3D
3H = asks

3S = 2 hearts
others = 3 hearts

=======
The emphasis is on having good minor values, whereas with general values you would continue to relay, looking first for a major fit or NT.

[straube]

Really useful post Zelandakh. I was especially looking for opinions on "what ought I to be wanting to show here" and I like how you broke it down. I appreciate how you can look at the starting conditions and work with that.

[straube]

I've blended the two structures. I'm not trying to show side minor shapes if I have 3 hearts. I just show side shortness if I have it. When I do show side minors and I show shortness other than hearts, I necessarily have 2 hearts. It's also useful for slam to be able to show shortness in partner's suit; not many systems can accomplish this. Like this Zelandakh? I know the 3S rebid is a step higher, but I'd like this structure to be identical to our 1S-2C, 2D structure.

2S-unspecified 6cd minor
.....2N-asks
..........3C-clubs
..............3D-asks
...................3H-1237
...................3S-3136
...................3N-3217
..........3D-1237
..........3H-3136
..........3S-3217
2N-4D/6C
.....3C-asks
..........3D-1246
..........3H-2146
3C-5D/5C
.....3D-asks
..........3H-1255
..........3S-2155
3D-1264
3H-2164
3S-sets hearts, asks cue bidding
.....3N-spade control
3N-3 hearts, short spade
4C-3 hearts, short diamond
4D-3 hearts, short club

[straube]

2S-6 clubs
.....2N-asks
..........3C-4 diamonds
..............3D-asks
...................3H-1246
...................3S-2146
..........3D-1237
..........3H-3136
..........3S-3217
2N-6D
.....3C-asks
..........3D-1273
..........3H-3163
..........3S-3271
3C-5D/5C
.....3D-asks
..........3H-1255
..........3S-2155
3D-sets hearts
3H-1264
3S-2164
3N-3 hearts, short spade
4C-3 hearts, short diamond
4D-3 hearts, short club

[Zelandakh]

This seems reasonable but I do think you should be sure to stress the minors. Most (all?) of these shapes (excluding the 3 heart types) can be managed just fine using normal relays if the minor suit(s) is(are) not something special. That was also the reason I was suggesting 6m-3H hands might be suitable for a transfer break where the minor is much better than the major - finding 6m where it makes and 6H does not on a 5-3 fit would be a big plus score!

Another question I have is what happens when Responder has a heart void? 3=0=5=5 for example, or 3=0=(7-3). Do you treat the hands as having a singleton or do hands with a void always relay? Also, on a purely technical level it is more efficient to have the more common shape (31(63)) be bid more economically than the rarer shape (32(17)). But obviously it is more important to follow your relay rules than to be 100% optimal or it is an open invitation to making a mistake. Finally, I think hearts is the focus suit here and it is perhaps nicer to have hands with heart length as the highest step, rather than spade length, so you can safely orchestrate zooming. Of course that is also a violation of relaying rules but perhaps more logical and easier to remember than a variation to the relay patterns changing. Having 3D here to set hearts is very nice since you can have Opener show a shortage or just bid 3H without one to start a cue auction.

Overall I would say this structure fits the bill of what you were looking for and to do it while maintaining your usual relay rules is great.

[straube]

I wasn't thinking of zooming after these bids. Unfortunately, the hand patterns are approximate and we haven't even established a base for QPs for responder's hand. Hard to show voids, too.
We can do quite well if opener knows the approximate shape. Say opener has xxx AKxxx QJ Qxx and responder has xx x AKxxx AKxxx. We've no way just relaying to diagnose the spade danger and will likely rest in 3N, but now we find 5C. x xx AKxxx AKxxx and we might find 6C.

Yeah, I'm trying to follow normal relay rules, but you're right that they're not optimum.