[Phil]

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Would you take the pass over 5♠ as forcing?

If yes / no, how would you classify this in your forcing pass 'meta-rules'?

Thanks

[Fluffy]

we doubled them for penalty at the 4 level, they won't play at a higher level undoubled.

[dake50]

Yup, forcing pass. Penalty X before.
Not X, but pass here fears the comparison is C-slam verses Penalty.

[gwnn]

I asked the janitor and he said even his cleaning lady thought it was forcing.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I asked the janitor and he said even his cleaning lady thought it was forcing.

I probably want to play even less forcing pass than the janitor and his cleaning lady but this one has to be forcing.

[FrancesHinden]

Assuming that 2H was forcing, then we have bid game from strength and they have saved. Even the janitor's cleaning lady's cat thinks pass is forcing.

[Free]

Lets settle this argument: pass is forcing. Dbl of 4♠ was penalty already, so why would we let them play undoubled at a higher level?

[Phil]

Well, I wouldn't have posted this had I thought it was crystal clear.

Let's take on "2♥ is forcing" (because if 2♥ is NF, then a lot of this becomes irrelevant):

a) Did 2♥ create a forcing pass later on? A forcing bid shouldn't; it is merely forcing on partner for one round and we do not know how the auction is going to develop and what our opponents are going to do.

b) Similarly - is partner's 3♣ call forcing as well? - in other words did the 2♥ bidder promise another call?

c) If a forcing pass has been created - i.e., if 'a' and probably 'b' are 'yes', then double of 4♠ doesn't necessarily say "I have them beat", but rather, "I am minimum and I prefer to defend". If the answers are no, then double definitely sends a strong message about "I want to defend".

d) 5♣ shows a very offensive hand - Probably a 7-3 or a 6-4. Is it always being bid to make? Well, we know partner doesn't like hearts, and I can see it being bid with very little defense.

The consensus about the pass over 5♠ is that it doesn't make sense to play it as non forcing since partner made a penalty double of 4♠. However, if we were in a forcing pass, partner's double of 4♠ isn't really penalty in the 1st place.

Can you imagine a case where we would ever want to play 6♣? I cannot. Accordingly, shouldn't the choices be to either double 5♠ or to pass 5♠? You might respond with, we are never defending 5♠ undoubled, but there is a slight chance that we would want to bid 6♣.

Anyway, I didn't think it was clear and didn't pass the janitor test. The person that held these cards didn't think so either (he held void AKTxxxx xxx T9x), although his partner should have doubled it I think.

[gnasher]

a) No
b) No
c) It's a forcing pass situation because of the sound of the auction - the opponents agreed to play in a partscore, waited for us to hid game, and then bid 4♠ over it.
d) If our agreements say that we're in a forcing pass situation from strength, our methods should assume that anything we bid is bid to make (even though sometimes it may be bid from fear).

Pass of 5♠ is forcing for the same reason as a pass of 4♠ - the auction says that they're saving. And yes, I can imagine wanting to play 6♣.

[whereagles]

My meta-rules say this is forcing, but then again I've already pulled a previous dbl, so I'm not so sure anymore.

[gwnn]

Theoretical question:

What if it's:

• inconceivable that we want to defend undoubled, and
  
• inconceivable that we want to bid over them?

Do we need to rank the two inconceivabilities? Or does a forcing pass apply only if we first thought of the second point of the above list?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

For us, passing 4S would already be forcing.

We did bid a vulnerable game.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

Since everybody is so sure our auction is strong and pass is forcing, I'd better be safe and join the crowd. Indeed, the opponents have bid like lunatics and it would be very unusual if this auction didn't end in 5SX.

But I don't think that either of us has shown much strength. Overcaller has merely overcalled 2C and afterwards made a minimal 3C bid. Advancer has bid as I might holding a defenseless hand such as x KQxxxxx x Qxxx. It certainly seems like his "strength" was at least partly based on distribution and fit.

I'm afraid the janitor wouldn't even take me as a cat.