[bftboy]

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What action do you consider to be standard here? Regardless, what action do you recommend and why?

[tolvyrj]

Its not yet quite clear who has the highest contract here, but my guess is that who ever has it its going to be higher than 3 level. So i might just as well make two things clear to my prd 1) i have ♥support and 2) i have no ♠ by biddig 3♠.
At least now i know that when he dbls 4♠ he/she knows i dont have any trump tricks.

[MrAce]

tolvyrj, on 2011-March-01, 16:16, said:

Its not yet quite clear who has the highest contract here, but my guess is that who ever has it its going to be higher than 3 level. So i might just as well make two things clear to my prd 1) i have ♥support and 2) i have no ♠ by biddig 3♠.
At least now i know that when he dbls 4♠ he/she knows i dont have any trump tricks.

The problem with that, when u make 3♠ splinter, partner may think you actually have the splinter values in your hand, instead of a 6-4 shapely hand. I would just support partner's ♥ suit, and i would do it in a manner that doesnt promise extra hcps but shape. Which is what i have.

I'd just bid 4♥. That shows 4-6 hands the way i play with my pd without extras, with extras we bid 4♦, we used to play 4♦ as solid 5♦ + 4 cards fit and no side control, but i throw that into trash since it didn't come in last 15 years.

[mich-b]

I would bid 4♥.
I suggest the following structure of game raises in this situation :
4♥ = lots of shape, min in hcp , normally 6-4 or perhaps 5440.
4♦ = 18-19 bal with 4 card support, or similar.
3♠ (or 4♣) = splinter, with extra strength, and defense as well.

[Lurpoa]

bftboy, on 2011-March-01, 14:30, said:

---

What action do you consider to be standard here? Regardless, what action do you recommend and why?

Playing SAYC or BWS2001:

4♥ . Partner knows that it is not based on a superhand, but more on distributional values.
Anyway, partner is now captain and decides on any further action.

[mike777]

3s


4h for me would be a very different hand and not some minimum or highly dist. as others suggest.

Not really good enough for 4d rebid.



3s not perfect but close enough. 4h, short spades and extras with some diamonds.

[aguahombre]

If using the old "Convention with no Name" or "Walsh Fragments" (which were not really fragments, hence "Convention with no Name"):

3S=Splinter (about 20 for hearts, including distribution)
4H=fairly balanced raise with high cards.
4D=4-6 raise, but not slammish
4C=4-6 raise, slammish

This hand would fit the 4♦ nitch. It doesn't establish that opener has spade shortness --might be short in clubs; but it gets the red suit distribution into play, and partner might have a clue about the rest, if they do compete to 4S. The advantage is that CHO will know which side has the goods, and which side is competing on distribution.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2011-March-02, 10:04

[bftboy]

sayc or pretty much vanilla 2/1. There are obviously lots of sensible actions available depending on agreements, so I was just wondering if there was a sort of "expert standard" approach here. Just trying to sort thru the pros and cons of different ways to play it. I actually bid 4♥ and it worked out ok.

[han]

4H, absolutely.

[the_dude]

Assuming "expert standard" with no special agreements:

I don't like 4♥ because partner's subsequent actions will be based on me having 18-19 balanced.

3♠ is tricky, when opps bid 4♠ and partner hits it you kind of have to pull. The difference in both offensive and defensive potential between singleton and void is huge - and partner's double is almost certainly expecting more than one defensive trick since you bid game by yourself.

How's this for an idea: bid 3♥ now. If 3♠ is passed back to you you can bid 4♥ and partner will know what you have. If 3 ♥ is passed out .. no big deal .. you are almost certainly not making game anyway (partner has good spades and a minimum). If it comes back to you at 4♠ undoubled you can bid 5♦ - defending 4♠ undoubled with a void and a fit can't be right. And if it comes back to you at 4♠ doubled you can feel a little better about leaving it in since your expected high card strength is now pretty close (remember that 3♥ promises an unbalanced hand).

Whadya think?

[jogs]

The expert community has been bidding 4♥ with this hand for over 30 years. TBW APR79 p9, Ed Manfield writes bids mean one thing in a constructive auction and another in a contested auction. Now that you have shown your hand you will not be tempted to bid over 4♠.

[ArtK78]

4♥ is clear - great playing strength, limited values.

Cuebid 2♠ with the balanced powerhouse hand that might bid 4♥ but for the overcall.

As for the "convention with no name," the diamonds aren't nearly good enough. They are supposed to be nearly solid - AKQTxx was the traditional holding for a 4♦ call. I have seen that standard lowered, but not to KQTxxx. And I don't know of any reason to bid 4♦ in competition without a nearly traditional hand. After all, it is a slam try.

[aguahombre]

jogs, on 2011-March-03, 12:09, said:

TBW APR79 p9, Ed Manfield writes bids mean one thing in a constructive auction and another in a contested auction. Now that you have shown your hand you will not be tempted to bid over 4♠.

The first sentence is obviously true. However, some people think they can show distribution/high-card differences in contested auctions as well as uncontested ones; and, if they can, it seems they are better off.

If we have, in fact, shown our hand with the jump to 4♥, no problem. I wasn't aware that it commonly showed a red suited minimum; is partner? Maybe big clubbers would know, because opener cannot have the HCP.

If 4♥ is just the standard, albeit expert, blast --with no other options available for hands with real strength ---partner is not very well placed to help out when more bidding occurs by the opponents, or if slam is a possibility for us.

[aguahombre]

ArtK78, on 2011-March-03, 12:23, said:

As for the "convention with no name," the diamonds aren't nearly good enough. They are supposed to be nearly solid - AKQTxx was the traditional holding for a 4♦ call. I have seen that standard lowered, but not to KQTxxx. And I don't know of any reason to bid 4♦ in competition without a nearly traditional hand. After all, it is a slam try.

Your description of the traditional "CWNN" is accurate. But, in comp, we do relax the requirements to emphasize distribution.

Lowering the Standard for the minor suit quality in competition is playable if pard is on board. Also, 4♦ was described in #7 above as not being a slam try; if it were, of course it would be out of the question.

[jogs]

aguahombre, on 2011-March-03, 12:29, said:

If we have, in fact, shown our hand with the jump to 4♥, no problem. I wasn't aware that it commonly showed a red suited minimum; is partner?

Don't think of it as minimum. It's based on offensive playing strength.

Quote

Maybe big clubbers would know, because opener cannot have the HCP.

The reality is that in a contested auction you wouldn't hold 18+ HCP more often that once in a blue moon. Many of us have never held that many HCP in a contested auction during our playing life. That's SAYC and 2/1 players and other natural system players.

[tolvyrj]

Im still prepared to defend 3♠bid here. First i dont know who the hand belongs to, and now when prd thinks wheter to use axe or compete to 5 level it helps or maybe ease up the route to slam.
4♥shows something else and promises couple of ♠IMO. 2♠promises much more hcp. than i have.

[losercover]

This don't get interesting until the opponents bid 4S. You don't know where the strength lies. I am guessing that 5D or 5H doesn't make and 4S may.

[JLOGIC]

In my opinion, 4H should show a hand like this ("gambling" with shape and not that much in HCP). I also think 5431 hands should bid 3H. It is super important not only to preempt them, but for partner to know what kind of hand you have early.

This is made possible by having a cuebid available, which I think should be able to include heart support. With your "real" 3H bids or 4H bids, just start with 2S. And of course, you always have the 3S splinter available.

Playing support doubles is nice, because you'd never bid 2S then 3H with some kind of 3 card support (eg 18-19 bal no stopper and 3 hearts) since you have a support X, so 2S followed by hearts is never ambiguous.

[haka9]

bftboy said:

What action do you consider to be standard here? Regardless, what action do you recommend and why?

I concider no action to be standard here. I try to describe my cards, I don't know who has the highest contract. So I bid 3♠.

[aguahombre]

Who cares what "standard" is? Whatever Partner understands is good; everything else is bad.

Everyone is right in what they post, as long as pard is in on the joke.