[EricK]

gregsolomon, on Sep 17 2004, 12:23 PM, said:

I once read an interview with Eric Rodwell where he said exactly the same thing.

The other day I saw Prakash Paranjape playing something like:

1C 16+
1D 11-15 and a biddable 4 card major
1H/S 11-15 5+cards
1NT 12-15 balanced, no biddable 4 card major
2C/D 9-15 6+cards, no biddable 4 card major
2H/S weak

Not sure how big a following this has, but it looks sound enough to me. They mentioned that they often do quite well after opening 2m, because overcalling is mildly hazardous. And when opps double for takeout it goes e.g. 2C-Dbl-3C compared to the rest of the room where it has gone 1C-Dbl-SlowPass

There doesn't seem to be a bid for eg 1-3-4-5 hands.

Eric

[hrothgar]

Here is the current response structure over a MOSCITO type 1♥

1♥ shows 4+ SPADES, ~9-14 HCP, could have a longer minor
If balanced, opener will hold ~13-14 HCP

4♠ = To play
4♥ = 4+ Spades, singleton Heart, 5-6 losers
4♦= 4+ Spades, singleton Diamond, 5-6 losers
4♣ = 4+ Spades, singleton Club, 5-6 losers
3NT = To play
3♠ = 4+ Spades, 8-9 losers
3♥ = 6+ Hearts and 3 Spades, construvtive but non-forcing
♦ = 6+ Diamonds and 3 Spades, constructive but non-forcing
3♣ = 6+ Clubs and 3 Spades, constructive, but non-forcing
2NT = 4+ Spades, 7 losers
2♠ = 3 Spades, 8-9 losers

[luke warm]

EricK, on Sep 17 2004, 09:52 PM, said:

There doesn't seem to be a bid for eg 1-3-4-5 hands.

Eric

eric, i see a lot of polish club systems that have differing 2- and 3-way 1c openings... within the framework of a 12-14 nt, are there theoretical drawbacks to this?

1c=any 15+, or
any 11-14/15 with clubs, or
any 2 suited hand with clubs (clubs may be canape)

for example, 1c can show 1345 hands here, or 1354 or 4225, etc... this seems to (i admit i haven't thought deeply on this) free up 2c and 2nt, it seems to allow a 1h opening to guarantee an unbalanced hand, even if 4 hearts (say 2452)

the main reason for opening 1h on 4 cards is to have a rebid over 1s (assuming a hand in the 1nt range that i don't open 1nt with - i try not to open 1nt on 4522)

another thought i had, is a 2-way 1nt bid allowed under gcc? i was thinking of 1nt=12-14 OR 18-19... the responses are very easy (responder passes with any hand that would pass 1d/1h/2nt, except of course responder always bids a 5M, even with zero points)

[mikestar]

luke warm, on Sep 18 2004, 01:23 PM, said:

...
another thought i had, is a 2-way 1nt bid allowed under gcc? i was thinking of 1nt=12-14 OR 18-19... the responses are very easy (responder passes with any hand that would pass 1d/1h/2nt, except of course responder always bids a 5M, even with zero points)

All contructive calls for both sides beginning with the openers's rebid are GCC legal.

[EricK]

luke warm, on Sep 18 2004, 01:23 PM, said:

EricK, on Sep 17 2004, 09:52 PM, said:

There doesn't seem to be a bid for eg 1-3-4-5 hands.

Eric

eric, i see a lot of polish club systems that have differing 2- and 3-way 1c openings... within the framework of a 12-14 nt, are there theoretical drawbacks to this?

1c=any 15+, or
any 11-14/15 with clubs, or
any 2 suited hand with clubs (clubs may be canape)

for example, 1c can show 1345 hands here, or 1354 or 4225, etc... this seems to (i admit i haven't thought deeply on this) free up 2c and 2nt, it seems to allow a 1h opening to guarantee an unbalanced hand, even if 4 hearts (say 2452)

the main reason for opening 1h on 4 cards is to have a rebid over 1s (assuming a hand in the 1nt range that i don't open 1nt with - i try not to open 1nt on 4522)

another thought i had, is a 2-way 1nt bid allowed under gcc? i was thinking of 1nt=12-14 OR 18-19... the responses are very easy (responder passes with any hand that would pass 1d/1h/2nt, except of course responder always bids a 5M, even with zero points)

You need to find bids for all the hands included in 1♣ after a negative 1♦ response.

Standard Polish Club will bid 1M with any of the weak hands, and hope to scramble to a playable spot at a low level. I am not sure what I would like to bid if I might have a 2-2-4-5 hand.

I think strong/weak bids work better if either the weak hand(s) or the strong hand(s) is well-defined. Otherwise you can have difficulty sorting everything out, even in an unopposed auction, let alone a competitive one.

Eric

[Antoine Fourrière]

If you don't want to consume an opening for the 4=4=1=4 type, it will spoil whichever opening you tuck these hands into. Since 2♣ is the least common opening, wouldn't it be better (well, less awful) to start with 2♣ instead of 1♥?
2♣ five clubs and a four-card major, or 4=4=1=4
2♦, 2♥, 2♠ preempts
2N six clubs with a near opening
3♣ six clubs with a full opening

After 2♣ 2♦?
2♥ four hearts and maybe four spades (2♠ pass or correct to 3♣)
2♠ four spades and five clubs

[luke warm]

hrothgar, on Sep 5 2004, 05:14 PM, said:

What do you open with the following hand?

AKQ
7642
7
Q5432

1♥ ...

[tysen2k]

Antoine Fourrière, on Nov 4 2004, 05:20 PM, said:

3♣ six clubs with a full opening

[MickyB]

I take it that that hasn't done too well in simulations, Tysen?

[tysen2k]

MickyB, on Nov 4 2004, 09:59 PM, said:

I take it that that hasn't done too well in simulations, Tysen?

I'm not going to even try simulations.
2♣ is somewhat of a burden already in Precision, I can't imagine trying to do it at the 3-level. Restricting it to 6 cards makes it decent at the 2-level but I would never subject myself to the cruelty of trying to handle constructive bidding after a 3♣ opening...

Tysen

[flytoox]

luke warm, on Nov 5 2004, 12:43 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Sep 5 2004, 05:14 PM, said:

What do you open with the following hand?

AKQ
7642
7
Q5432

1♥ ...

Why not pass this hand? 1H is misleading. If pd could open or overcall, you are well placed.

Pass, is also called a BID.

[EarlPurple]

With that awful hand you open 2♣ at favourable vulnerability. As the strong club is 15+ in this system, partner can even pass this with 9 points opposite, and maybe the opps will do the wrong thing. If partner has a 5-card major and bids it (forcing the way I play it), you have great support. If partner has a 4-card major and forward-going values, he can bid 2♦ and for now I can happily bid 2♥.

We lose out when partner has something like 3-4-4-2 and about 9 points. They can't make anything and we are in clubs instead of hearts because partner cannot bid 2♦ with nothing to say over 2♠ (unless he's allowed to bid 2NT on that hand).

I haven't played this system for a long time, by the way. 2♣ going down a few 50s though is often not the end of the world at imps.

Both sides non-vulnerable I might still open 2♣. This can actually be the most competitive vulnerability as you only lose 100 even 2 off undoubled or 1 off doubled.

If I'm vulnerable I would pass that hand.

[Rebound]

jtfanclub, on Sep 5 2004, 05:14 PM, said:

luke warm, on Sep 5 2004, 03:28 PM, said:

it does free up 2C (which is almost as hated in precision as 1D)...

Really? 2C openings are my second favorite opening in Precision, right behind 1NT. When we have game, it's easy to find. When we don't, it's usually very difficult for opponents. It's a perfect pre-empt when responder is weak, because opponents usually don't have the tools to explore game properly, while the clubs are long enough to sit after an X.

Do most people find otherwise?

I agree with this. My precision partners and I have enjoyed good results on hands with 2C openers (when we don't make errors in our agreements anyway).

We currently play an old style with mini-roman 2D, precision 2C, and 1D showing 2 or more. I'm interested in updating it and I like some of the design ideas on this thread, but I personally really like those 2C openers and I would have a hard time getting used to any precision system that didn't employ 2C in this way. But then I can be a little stubborn.