[Poky]

They vul.

♠J10x
♥9xxx
♦AKxx
♣Kx

pass - 1♠ - 2♣ - pass
???

You don't play weak-NT so you didn't open it.

[skorchev]

I voted for 2♠. I think 2NT isn't a good bid because you have not a stopper ♠. 2♦ , what is it, Fit-Non-Jump?

However 2♠ sounds good.


Stefan

[inquiry]

This is matchpoint, first attempt is to try to get a plus score. Unless I am playing something "funny" I am going to bid 3♣'s. Oddly with misho I would bid 2♠ but not for the reason anyone ielse. For me, 2♠ with misho would show balanced hand or diamonds. If misho bids 3♣, that is where we play, if he bids 2
NT, I will bid 3♣ showing this type of hand.

Ben

[luke warm]

to me there are only 2 possible bids, 2S and 2NT... both 2D and 2H would suggest club fits... of the two choices, i'd go with 2NT... it shows (to me) club tolerance but not a fit... 2S might be better, but i can count 7 tricks (maybe 8 if pard is A,Q 6th in clubs), and i imagine there's a decent play for 3NT... true, i don't have a spade stopper (half stopper maybe), but i think my bid might talk lho into leading another suit, hoping his pard can lead thru my supposed spade stopper...

it's possible partner will simply hate nt and return to clubs... if so, i pass

[EricK]

luke warm, on Sep 4 2004, 03:27 PM, said:

to me there are only 2 possible bids, 2S and 2NT... both 2D and 2H would suggest club fits... of the two choices, i'd go with 2NT... it shows (to me) club tolerance but not a fit... 2S might be better, but i can count 7 tricks (maybe 8 if pard is A,Q 6th in clubs), and i imagine there's a decent play for 3NT... true, i don't have a spade stopper (half stopper maybe), but i think my bid might talk lho into leading another suit, hoping his pard can lead thru my supposed spade stopper...

it's possible partner will simply hate nt and return to clubs... if so, i pass

You do have a ♣ fit.

Partner isn't going to be making an overcall in the ♣ suit (which hardly takes any room away from the opps) opposite a passed hand without at least 6 of them. At least I hope he isn't.

Eric

[luke warm]

that's probably true, but i still prefer my hand to be described as 'club tolerant' rather than as having a fit... especially if pard wants to compete to the 3 level or higher

[jtfanclub]

EricK, on Sep 4 2004, 01:11 PM, said:

Partner isn't going to be making an overcall in the ♣ suit (which hardly takes any room away from the opps) opposite a passed hand without at least 6 of them. At least I hope he isn't.

Eric

AKxx
x
xxx
AQJxx

What would you do over a 2nd hand 1S opening? And this hand could be a whole lot stronger before you'd dare to X and figure out what to do over your partner's 3H bid.

If it matters, opener is 5-5 in the majors, responder is 1-3.

[EricK]

jtfanclub, on Sep 4 2004, 07:36 PM, said:

EricK, on Sep 4 2004, 01:11 PM, said:

Partner isn't going to be making an overcall in the ♣ suit (which hardly takes any room away from the opps) opposite a passed hand without at least 6 of them. At least I hope he isn't.

Eric

AKxx
x
xxx
AQJxx

What would you do over a 2nd hand 1S opening? And this hand could be a whole lot stronger before you'd dare to X and figure out what to do over your partner's 3H bid.

If it matters, opener is 5-5 in the majors, responder is 1-3.

I pass for now.

Eric

[Fluffy]

Poky, on Sep 4 2004, 09:16 AM, said:

You don't play weak-NT so you didn't open it.

opening weak NT, and 1 in a suit has teh same range, so I doubt this is a vlaid argument, if I judged not to ope with this I´ll live with it.

I can see 2 good options:

2♦:shows our strenght, some values, and helps to get a maybe 4-4♥ fit, but normally should have more ♦, the danger is it is now not forcing since we are passed hand.

2♠: limit raise, ♣Kx is better support than ♣xxx, and partner has promised 6 cards, don´t solve partner´s problems because he maybe doesn´t have them.

[laughter]

I can't agree to the argument for 2D/2H being Fit Non Jump.

Surely it depends on partnership style that a passed hand can or cannot have a suit worthy of bidding freely at two level.

Suppose it is normal for one to pass in first seat with
xxx-AQJxx-xxxx-x (Weak 2 promises 6)
Can't he back in with a 2H (NF, real suit) after the 2C overcall?

An important guiding principle for bidding should be:
'If a bid can be logically interpreted as natural, then it is natural.'

You can usually survive without a FSNJ. Like here you can show club fit with a raise or cuebid, and later shows your values should overcaller be interested in game.

I also object to 3C.
Being a maximum passed hand, 3C is quite an underbid, frequently leading to missed game.

Even in MP, you should bid game when you have decent values and fits

2NT may NOT lead to a correction to club when overcaller is distributional:
xx-AKx-x-AQxxxxx
Overcaller would just raise to 3NT, trusting that you will provide the spade stop and he will provide the tricks. Would Opener lead other suits with AKQxx in spades?
He may trust his eyesight more than his opponent's bidding.

All in all, a cue bid showing fit and values seems better than its alternatives.

[Free]

Why is anyone so willing to bid if we're NV vs V, and I already passed??? Nobody heard of a psychic bid, extreme weak overcalls,...?

I pass again!

[laughter]

Psych overcall is a dubious practice as it misleads partner more than misleading opponents.
Overcaller may be light Fav in MP, but it is not particularly indicated.
As the 2C overcall consumes no bidding space, it is unlikely to be a tactical nuisance bid. Overcaller should have his bid.
Btw, if you 'protect' by passing here, how can the partnership bid constructively as your LHO may have opened light and overcaller is unlimited?

[Free]

There is some invention called "Double"...

[flytoox]

Free, on Sep 7 2004, 09:28 AM, said:

Why is anyone so willing to bid if we're NV vs V, and I already passed??? Nobody heard of a psychic bid, extreme weak overcalls,...?

I pass again!

Free, is everyone psyching around in your eyes? Do you trust pd or opp more? If RHO made a t/o dbl or sthelse, u might suspect pd is fooling around, but now every sign shows pd is telling u what he has.

Hongjun

[flytoox]

I think 2s is pretty clear here, I dont object 2N either, but I do not want pd run away next time from 3Nx, so I prefer not to lie this time.

Hongjun

[laughter]

Takeout Double is not the solution to every strong hand.
Say you have:
Ax-xx-KJx-AQxxxx
Do you want to double and hear advancer bid heart?
I think double to show stronger hand while overcall is limited to weak hand is a style that was long gone....

[joker_gib]

Clear 2♠ bid with ♣Kx and a max passed hand !

[Poky]

Poky, on Sep 4 2004, 10:16 AM, said:

They vul.

♠J10x
♥9xxx
♦AKxx
♣Kx

pass - 1♠ - 2♣ - pass
???

a ) I play that 3rd/4th seat actions can be very light. In dubious auctions (say, the opps Dbl 2♣ or bid some kind of forcing) partner shouldn't bid potentially dangerous bids without a fit. At this vulrnerability I can bid 2♣ even with only: x xxx Qxxx KQJxx.

b ) Another thing worth considering is - what should partner's continuations be after opponent's pass? I like this structure:

3♣ - courtesy raise with 3+♣, [6-9],

2NT - [10-11] balanced with (at least) good club tollerance,

2♠ - [9-11] with club fit,

2♥ - [8-11] with (5)6♥, not suitable for a weak-2,

2♦ - general asking bid with good hand, denying any of higher bids (usually with 4♥4♦ or 5+♦), usually F1 (except when partner is very light with 3+♦)
Responses are: 2♥=4♥, 2♠=4♦ or extras w/o stopper, 2NT=extras with stopper, 3♣=6♣ minimum hand, 3♦=6♣4♦ very good hand...

Do you like this idea?