[straube]

After an ambiguous (10-15 with 0+ diamonds) and a 1S overcall, it seems like responses should be quite different than for a standard 1D opening. Is it really as valuable for 1N to be natural here? There is not much chance for game (on power anyway). It seems like the main advantage of 1N natural is that we might bid it first. Also seems like dbl to guarantee 4+ hearts is not as useful. I actually looked at a bunch of hands for this and it seemed like we were usually outgunned.

I'm thinking...

1D (1S)

P...could have values or length in spades that might bid 1N after a balancing double
dbl...takeout for three suits or perhaps the reds or GI+ balanced without stopper or GI with 4 hearts
1N-NFB+ clubs
2C-NFB+ diamonds
2D-GI+ hearts
2H-NFB hearts
2S-GI, has stopper
2N-minors
3m-weak
3H-GF, has stopper
3S-GF, has stopper and four hearts


The other question is what 1D (1S) P P 1N should show. Thinking that it and 2C should both show both minors with a preference for one over the other

[straube]

I've been looking at hands and I think that 1D (1S) 1N as natural is wasted. For it to be right, responder has to have a stopper and not four hearts or a long minor. It seems pretty infrequent. Even when it meets those requirements, the bid tells opener nothing useful about shape. If advancer raises spades, there is not much to be done. Also, responder can still play 1N when opener is able to balance back in. What's the best use for 1N if not natural? Hearts? Clubs?

[straube]

Thinking...

1D (1S)

P- less than GF, most hands with spades including spades and hearts. Spades are not likely to be raised so wait for opener to balance.
dbl-3/3 or better in the minors. This lets opener compete with a 5-cd minor at the 3-level or retire in 1N. Again, this hand doesn't have spade length
1N-nf, hearts (like a negative double). Occasionally this hand will have a long minor that responder doesn't get to mention
2C-NFB+ diamonds
2D-NFB+ hearts
2H-GI+ clubs
2S-GI in NT with a stopper
2N-both minors, at least 5D/4C
3m-weak
3H-GF with stopper
3S-GF with stopper and four hearts
3N-stopper, wants to declare

ok, just talking to myself so far. Any thoughts?

[gwnn]

There was (in the context of symmetric relay) Cascade's structure that I played in a partnership:

X=some points and interest in the minors, denies 4 hearts
1NT=game force any
2♣/♦=4+ card suit here along with 4 hearts
2♥=NF with hearts

The 2m bids were very common and very good, we found many a light game on grounds of double fits (when opener had 6/4 or so). Of course the 1NT GF is expensive, they can preempt us and we don't have any idea what opener has. Perhaps you can somehow adopt the 2m bids though.

[straube]

Thanks for helping. I would think that the m/H hands come up a lot. What did he do with the 1-suited minor hands?

I've been discovering that it really pays for responder to consider passing when he holds four spades and sometimes even with three. Here's how opener can re-open....

P-3+ spades
dbl-takeout
1N-4/4 or better minors
2C-4H/5C
2D-4H/5D


Let's say I'm responder now and hold...

Kxxx Axx xxxxx x. Pass
Kxxx Axxxx xx xx Pass. If I showed hearts with 1N, I can't handle partner's 2C rebid showing both minors.
..........................If partner can double, I can bid hearts. If he bids 1N showing minors, I can pass.

Kxxx x Axxx xxxx Dbl showing minors. The opponents have a heart fit and it's important to show partner we
..........................can compete in either minor.

[mike gill]

We play

1d (1M)
X neg, usually exactly 4OM and doesn't make promises about other suits
1N nat
2m NFB
2M inv+ with one or both minors
1s F, 5+
2h F, 5+, inv+
2n nat
3c xx45 or better in minors, <inv
3M xfer to 3n showing a stopper
other bids preemptive

I think it's important to have a natural 1n available. You will lose when
1) they raise to 2M and opener is afraid to compete because he doesn't know responder any values, or
2) he sells to 1M because he has 3+ there and again can't bid 1n on his own.
3) you miss game because they bump to 3M and you have a max with shape
Yes the transfer structure has advantages but you'll lose on a lot of normal hands if responder has to pass with balanced hands with 8-11ish HCP and not 4OM.

The tradeoff is that you have to either give up being able to bid NFBs in the minors or handle your inv+ hands without the OM with 2N and 2M. In practice, this has worked reasonably well so far.

[gwnn]

straube, on 2011-February-14, 09:43, said:

Thanks for helping. I would think that the m/H hands come up a lot. What did he do with the 1-suited minor hands?

double or 3m. or perhaps 3♣ was pass/correct. I don't remember

[straube]

Still looking at hands...mostly posting for partner's review but still looking for suggestions

I'm back to using dbl as negative (hearts).

Dbl consumes less space than 1N and has to handle more hands including balanced, 2-suited and perhaps 1-suited hands. I've learned that one must be careful doubling when holding spades.
Say I hold Axxxx KJxx xx xx. If partner doesn't agree hearts, he's almost certain to rebid 2C showing both minors. It's a little better if I hold Axxxx KJxx x xxx because now I have a partial fit for clubs.
The same applies for 4522 shape.

How could we recover after passing Axxxx KJxx xx xx? Simply pass and let partner reopen. If he doubles, we bid 2H. If he bids 1N (minors) we pass. If he bids 2m (H +m) we bid 2H.

Thinking that 1N should show minors and probably 8+ cards in the minors including 4-4, 3-5, and 5-3 shapes. With 8 cards in the minors, the opponents have very probably a major suit fit, so it doesn't really matter if I'm 3-2-4-4 or 2-3-4-4. 1N would not be forcing. In competition 1D (1S) 1N (2S) opener could show 4-4 in the minors by either 2N or dbl depending on partnership agreement.

Can't squander 1N for something natural like KJxxx Axx xx xxx. Partner can never compete with 5 clubs now.

2C ought still to show diamonds, but in a pinch could be short if responder needs to force. For instance, after 1D (1S) 2C P (2D) 2S would ask for a stopper and opener lacking a stopper should probably bid 3C with a preference. As a NFB, partner ought to expect something like 9 hcps but this may be shaded with extra diamond length and/or spade shortness. Acceptance of the transfer shows a minimum and probably 3 or fewer diamonds.

2D shows hearts. 2H shows clubs with GI strength or better and 2S promises a stopper with a hand that would have made a natural 2N call. I suppose if opener doesn't have a spade honor but wants to bid game, he could raise spades so that the lead goes to responder. But with Tx or better, opener probably wants to declare.

[awm]

You seem to believe that notrump will play better from opener's side, but I'm not really convinced by this.

The usual positions where notrump is better from opener's side involve layouts where all of: (1) responder has only one potential spade control like Kxx or Axx (2) opener has a little help in spades like Qx(x) or Jx(x) (3) overcaller's partner doesn't have any spade honor. There are also positions you are overlooking where notrump is better from responder's side, typically where both: (1) responder has two potential spade stoppers like KJx or QJxx (2) overcaller's partner has Hx in spades. Notrump being better from opener's side relies on the first set of conditions being more likely than the second. But a "natural notrump invite" should usually contain two possible spade stops, and often a four-card spade holding (otherwise you have other options usually, like negative X or show a minor suit etc). So I guess I'm not convinced having 2♠=NT invite and 2N=minors is better than the other way around.

[straube]

awm, on 2011-February-14, 23:37, said:

You seem to believe that notrump will play better from opener's side, but I'm not really convinced by this.

The usual positions where notrump is better from opener's side involve layouts where all of: (1) responder has only one potential spade control like Kxx or Axx (2) opener has a little help in spades like Qx(x) or Jx(x) (3) overcaller's partner doesn't have any spade honor. There are also positions you are overlooking where notrump is better from responder's side, typically where both: (1) responder has two potential spade stoppers like KJx or QJxx (2) overcaller's partner has Hx in spades. Notrump being better from opener's side relies on the first set of conditions being more likely than the second. But a "natural notrump invite" should usually contain two possible spade stops, and often a four-card spade holding (otherwise you have other options usually, like negative X or show a minor suit etc). So I guess I'm not convinced having 2♠=NT invite and 2N=minors is better than the other way around.

I'm not at all sure. I've seen folks play that 1m (1M) 3M is a desire to play 3N with something like Axx or Kxx hoping that opener will declare with Qx or Jxx. I think they also have the option of bidding 3N directly with QJxx or KJx. I haven't looked at hands, but I was supposing that if I had to pick one or the other, that forcing overcaller to lead his suit would be odds on to our advantage. Combined with the opportunity opener has to "raise" spades to give declaration back to responder when opener has no honor to protect, it seems like this flexibility ought to win more than it loses.

What do you think of using 1N to show 8+ minor cards? I'm thinking that using the 1N bid for fit-finding is more important than showing a spade stopper and possibly length.

[awm]

There are certainly advantages to being able to play notrump from either side.... the question is if you have only one way to show an invitational notrump hand, which side do you want to play it from? Some other issues also arise, for example hands with only three-card spades often have an alternative route to invite (i.e. show a 5-card minor on the way) whereas hands with four-card spades (also more likely to want to declare in 3NT) pretty much have to use the notrump invite.

I'll also say that my experiences with the 1♦-(1♠)-1NT auction are somewhat different from yours. I find that this buys the contract fairly frequently, and that if opponents do raise spades I'm usually well-positioned using takeout doubles combined with 2NT "minors" in these sequences. I'm sure that using 1NT to show 8 minor cards will help you when this comes up (although it may be less frequent than you think, since 5+♦ hands may be better off to make a NFB and 4♦/5♣ hands can bid 2NT in your methods). However, patterns like 4234, 4333, 3325, combine to be an awful lot more common than your 8 minor cards hands and I think it will help for responder to show values on these hands. There are a lot of situations like 3424 (opener) opposite 3334 (responder) where it seems like you are going to just sell to 1♠ rather than declaring 1NT and I think this will often be a partscore swing against you. Obviously finding the 4-4 club fit is difficult, but getting to 1NT when responder has a spade card or two really should not be hard.

[straube]

Thanks for your comments. I always enjoy reading your posts.

We may wind up using the standard 1N response after all, but I still notice that...

1. our chance of getting to 3N is much less than after a standard 1D opening. I.e. knowing that partner has a stopper isn't very useful except to play 1N.
2. Compared to standard or even a Precision (2+) opening, we're quite behind in fit-finding after 1D (1S) and might devote more resources (bids) to catching up.
3. While a suprising number of responding hands have a spade stopper and are able to bid 1N, a large number of responding hands don't have a stopper and can't raise opener's minor as in standard. Many of
....these could negative double with three hearts (leading to 4-3 fits when perhaps a better minor fit is available but there's always the 3-2-4-4 and 3-2-(53) patterns with no stopper.
4. Having responder show hearts is not quite as all-important as is the case for standard.


If I consider xx xxxx Axx KQxx and have two bids available....one guaranteeing four hearts and the other bid showing takeout shape with 3 or 4 hearts, there is more value to the latter opposite a nebulous limited 1D than would be the case opposite a natural unlimited 1D. For the latter, game in hearts is quite a real possibility. For the former, we might stumble upon a 9-card club fit if we make a takeout bid.

Takeout shapes (2 or fewer spades and 3+ in each other suit) seem to account for roughly 25% of responding hands after 1D (1S) so I've wondered whether assigning dbl or 1N or even 2C to these might make sense.

Thanks again. If you think of a way to experiment with 1N as something other than its standard meaning, I'd like to hear about it.

[straube]

Thinking something like....


1D (1S)....

P-bad hand or spade length or spade length and hearts such that 1D (1S) dbl P 2m creates a problem. Both major hands can usually wait for partner to balance.
.....dbl-takeout
.....1N-minors
.....2C-round suits
.....2D-red suits

dbl-usually four hearts but also takeout shapes with 3 hearts such as 2-3-4-4 and 2-3-(53).

1N-balanced hand with at most four spades. No stopper required, but lacking stopper, responder should be non-minimum. The idea here is to let opener compete with 4/4 minors or a 5 minor.
.....1N from the wrong side is not great, but how else do we get to 1N when it is right when responder has xxx AJx Kxxx Qxx ?

2C-diamonds

2D-hearts

2H-clubs

2S-still pondering awm's criticism

2N-minors. It appears correct to bid 2N with 4-1-4-4 shape. Probably 90+ % chance of fit

3m-to play

Like this any better?

[awm]

I'm wondering about a combination like:

Pass = weak, or penalty pass, or anything less than invitational with 4+♠ and no particular suit to show
X = one of (1) competitive with 1-3♠, 1-3♥, 2-4♦, 3-5♣ (2) competitive with 4♥ and a 5+ minor (3) invitational or better without a 5-card suit
1NT = competitive values with 4♥ and no five-card suit, usually not 4♠
2♣ = 5+ diamonds at least competitive
2♦ = 5+ hearts at least competitive
2♥ = 5+ clubs and at least invite
2♠ = competitive with at least 5/4 minors (2NT asks)
2NT = invite wanting to declare notrump (if not wanting to declare then X or transfer to a 5-card suit)
3m, 3♥ = natural 6-card suit less than invite
3♠ = transfer to 3NT

If responder bids 1NT, opener can raise hearts or bid a five-card minor. Hands without 4♥ or a 5m tend to pass 1NT. In principle game is possible here if opener has an unbalanced max with four hearts, but otherwise we are just competing the partial. After 1♦-1♠-1NT-2♠, opener's 2NT can be a sort of good/bad, asking responder's longer minor (i.e. opener has both minors) or showing a minimum that wants to compete to 3♥.

After 1♦-1♠-X-Pass, opener can bid a five-card minor. Holding something balanced or 4441 including a spade suit, opener bids 1NT regardless of stoppers. Holding short spades (rare b/c opponents have a big fit and no raise) opener can bid 2♥ on a good four-card suit or bid 2♠. If opener rebids 1NT or 2m, responder's next action will usually be to pass (hand type 1), or to bid his cheapest suit (hand type 2) , or either raise or cuebid (hand type 3).

After 1♦-1♠-X-2♠, opener can make a responsive double to show four hearts (finding the heart fit opposite hand 2 or possibly hand 3). Lacking four hearts, he can bid a five-card minor at the three-level (usually there is a fit there) or bid 2NT to show both minors with short spades, or generally pass with spade length.

[straube]

I'm still digesting your structure.

One thought I'd had was to make 1D (1S) 2H be competitive/inv with four hearts and five clubs.

Perhaps then 1D (1S) 1N could be the 4H/balanced or 4H/5D hand types. Should opener ever compete in clubs, we have equal level conversion.

This at least simplifies 1D (1S) dbl into denying four hearts and later doubles (by opener or responder) could be used to sort out minor suit preferences.

As far as showing clubs...1D (1S) 3C still shows clubs competitive, but showing them invitational+ has to wait. Of course, clubs always get slighted...

[straube]

Your structure is growing on me.

I'm still a little concerned when responder has something like 3-4-1-5. Opener really has no safety competing to 3D opposite such a possibility. Should responder pass such a hand?

It also seems a little greedy to be able to show 4H/5C by the point of....1D (1S) dbl P 1N P 2C. It feels like 2C ought to be a 3-suited takeout or a forcing bid of some kind.

I do like the idea of using dbl as (probably) balanced. It increases the percentage of time that opener gets to play 1N compared to a negative double showing hearts.

When we use 1N to show hearts/balanced, it wrong-sides the contract sometimes, but other times responder will have the spade stopper and other times opener will bid out.

[straube]

This excludes competitive hands with 4H/5C and diamond shortness


1D (1S)

dbl-balanced, takeout, diamonds, GI hearts or GI other
.....1N-
..........P-balanced
..........2C-takeout
..........2D-diamonds
..........2H-4H, GI+ (forcing but could revise to be nf)
..........2S-bal, stopper ask
..........2N-GF
.....2C-takeout (1444. 1435, 1453), weak
.....2D-diamonds
.....2H-takeout (1444, 1435, 1453), strong
.....2S-minors
1N-4 hearts, balanced or with 5D
.....2C-minors
2C-clubs, GI+ and forcing
2D-hearts, competitive+
2H-diamonds, GF
2S-minors
2N-inv

[awm]

I think the problem with 3415 hands is not that big a deal, if we just have opener refrain from bidding diamond suits over the spade raise.

If you have the auction 1♦ - 1♠ - X - 2♠, opener's hand types include:

(1) Opener should usually pass with 3+♠, letting responder balance
(2) With 24(34) or 14(35) or 1444 or 24(25), opener is doubling to show four hearts
(3) With 2344 or 2353 or 1354 or 2254, opener can bid 2NT to show both minors with a diamond preference
(4) With 2335 or 1345, opener can bid 3♣ to show five cards there and responder can correct to diamonds with x45x

[straube]

So when responder has less than GI values, which hand patterns are you allowing responder to take action when he has four spades? Excepting the 3L preempts of course.

I think it's important to show five hearts. I think one can also safely show diamonds (either method)...particularly if it's a good suit. I would show both minors with 4-1-4-4. Otherwise I'm thinking pass and wait for opener to reopen. Is that what you're thinking?

[awm]

straube, on 2011-February-17, 20:04, said:

So when responder has less than GI values, which hand patterns are you allowing responder to take action when he has four spades? Excepting the 3L preempts of course.

I think it's important to show five hearts. I think one can also safely show diamonds (either method)...particularly if it's a good suit. I would show both minors with 4-1-4-4. Otherwise I'm thinking pass and wait for opener to reopen. Is that what you're thinking?

Yeah, if you pass opener will usually have 0-2♠ and reopen. If you have four spades and opener has three, then defending 1♠ is usually okay when you're not missing a game. So the less than invite hands with four spades are normally passing. If you have a five-card suit you can transfer to (like diamonds or hearts) then you can of course bid it if you want. I'm not so eager to show both minors on 4144 but there's nothing disallowing it.