[CSGibson]

---

Agreements about X is that it is a negative X at the 3 level. Bids at the 4 level by South would have been forcing to game, and natural. The form of scoring was matchpoints, and the 3♠ bidder is a competent lady who got called in as a sub in a club game, so E-W have no real agreements other than natural. South led the Q of diamonds (rusinow) against 3♠X.

[mtvesuvius]

Slightly unlucky, but I think South has a clear 4♥ call over 3♠.

[Cyberyeti]

Wouldn't pass the X, 3N or 4♥.

Opps are not idiots, I don't expect to get rich. Be happy partner has J♠ or it might have made an overtrick.

[pooltuna]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-February-15, 22:48, said:

Slightly unlucky, but I think South has a clear 4♥ call over 3♠.

yep and the 55 hand usually plays better in a suit anyway even if it is a 5-2 fit(IMO)

[CSGibson]

Concentrating just on the south hand for a minute, Adam obviously thinks that a negative double is wrong, any other opinions?

[gnasher]

I think it's a good idea to play 1NT (3M) 4m as a two-suiter with the other major. The arguments for doing so are the same as after an opening preempt.

Without that agreement, I think South has an awkward problem but should probbaly have bid 4♥.

I wouldn't have left in the double, though. Three-level takeout doubles should be taken out most of the time, and North's spades were unexceptional.

[JLOGIC]

Am I in lala land? How is the south hand an awkward problem? I am never trying to get to 5D with 5 good hearts and such a good hand at MP, and even if I somehow doubled and partner bid 3N, I would still want to bid 4H. Partner will usually have 3 hearts, and even if he doesn't I expect 4H to be better than 3N.

Playing 4 of a minor here as hearts and a minor seems really bad also, the arguments are not the same as over a 3S opener because:

1) With partner having shown a good hand, we need much less in the way of values to have a slam try in a minor (as opposed to over a 3S opener, where we need a lot).

2) We can survive much more often by bidding 4 of the major with 5 of them, since partner has guaranteed 2+ (unlike over a 3S opener where the main risk is playing a silly 5-1 fit after a 4H overcall).

So the times we lose are more frequent, and the times we gain are less frequent.

North is also out to lunch passing the double, I think bidding 3N is fine but pass is just strange. KQx onside is not a good holding for defense.

I have a hard time figuring out who was worse, but I guess north.

[Gerben42]

South: 4♦ as non-leaping Michael's would show the hand of course, without that I would simply have bid 4♥. You don't want partner to pass your double, which of course is what he did next *g

North: This decision is tougher. Yet, you only have 1 trump trick (okay you now have two because ♠A is not at its expected place). Still I would probably have tried 3NT, which South then corrects to 4♥ I guess.

[whereagles]

agree with justinian

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2011-February-18, 13:54, said:

Am I in lala land?

Perhaps you're in a land where there isn't enough data. I generated 20 hands where:
- North has 15-17 4432/4333, 14-16 5332/22(54)/24(25), 13-16 6m322. (I realise that this may not be to everyone's taste)
- East has 0-10 with 7+ spades; if only 7 spades, has two of the top five spades.

Below are nineteen of the first twenty hands, with my analysis. (I removed one hand, where East had ten spades.) I decided by inspection which games/slams would make, and worked out what would happen after double, or after 4♦ showing the reds.

Double always worked. Often it would go dbl-4m-4♥-pass Once it allowed us to avoid a poor 4♥.

Showing the red-suits always worked. On a few hands it gave us a chance to get to a good slam. Once it allowed us to avoid a poor 4♥.

An immediate 4♥ usually worked, but once led to a poor 4♥. There weren't any hands where a direct 4♥ gained over double.

      	S: Q7
      	H: A3
      	D: AJ2
      	C: AJT876
 S: 853        	S: AKT9642
 H: Q98652 		H: ---
 D: T74        	D: 95
 C: 3          	C: K952
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
Nothing makes.
--------------------------
      	S: A2
      	H: A853
      	D: T942
      	C: AKT
 S: T6 			S: KQ987543
 H: Q6 			H: 92
 D: AJ5        	D: 7
 C: J98762 		C: 53
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
All games make.  Double gets us to making game.  Showing D+H may get us to failing slam.
--------------------------
      	S: 83
      	H: A93
      	D: AT97
      	C: AKJ6
 S: K54        	S: AQT9762
 H: 862        	H: Q5
 D: J52        	D: 4
 C: T987   		C: 532
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
4H/6D make.  Double gets us to making game.  Showing D+H may get us to making slam.
--------------------------
      	S: Q9
      	H: Q962
      	D: A5
      	C: AKJ53
 S: T4 			S: AK876532
 H: A853   		H: ---
 D: JT74   		D: 92
 C: T92        	C: 876
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
4H/5D make.  All actions get us to making game.
--------------------------
      	S: A9
      	H: 32
      	D: AJT9
      	C: AK853
 S: 84 			S: KQT76532
 H: AQ865      	H: 9
 D: 754        	D: 2
 C: T76        	C: J92
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
3NT/5D make; 4H probably down.  Double gets us to making game.  Showing D+H gets us to making game or failing slam.
--------------------------
      	S: 74
      	H: A98
      	D: AJ2
      	C: AJ982
 S: Q62        	S: AKT9853
 H: 52 			H: Q63
 D: 975        	D: T4
 C: KT753      	C: 6
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
4H/5D make.  All actions get us to making game.
--------------------------
      	S: Q8
      	H: AQ8
      	D: A742
      	C: KJT3
 S: K5 			S: AT976432
 H: 9632   		H: 5
 D: JT 			D: 95
 C: 98762      	C: A5
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
4H/5D make.  All actions get us to making game.
--------------------------
      	S: 42
      	H: AQ6
      	D: J2
      	C: AKJT82
 S: Q87        	S: AKT9653
 H: 98532      	H: ---
 D: A97        	D: T54
 C: 53 			C: 976
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
4H makes.  All actions get us to making game.
--------------------------
      	S: A3
      	H: AQ98
      	D: A4
      	C: T8763
 S: 852        	S: KQT9764
 H: 6532   		H: ---
 D: 72 			D: JT95
 C: AKJ2   		C: 95
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
3NT/4H makes.  All actions get us to making game.
--------------------------
      	S: 72
      	H: A3
      	D: A92
      	C: AKJ865
 S: T43        	S: AKQ9865
 H: Q985   		H: 62
 D: J54        	D: T7
 C: 932        	C: T7
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
4H/6C/6D make.  All actions get us to making game.
--------------------------
      	S: A84
      	H: AQ93
      	D: AT94
      	C: K7
 S: 97 			S: KQT6532
 H: 652        	H: 8
 D: 52 			D: J7
 C: A98652 		C: JT3
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
3NT/6H/6D make.  Double gets us to making game.  Showing D+H may get us to making slam.
--------------------------
      	S: Q4
      	H: AQ5
      	D: JT5
      	C: AJ875
 S: 873        	S: AKT9652
 H: 9632   		H: 8
 D: A74        	D: 92
 C: KT6        	C: 932
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
4H/5D make.  All actions get us to making game.
--------------------------
      	S: A9
      	H: AQ85
      	D: J7
      	C: KJ963
 S: K5 			S: QT876432
 H: 96 			H: 32
 D: A942   		D: T5
 C: T8752      	C: A
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
4H/5D make.  All actions get us to making game.
--------------------------
      	S: 52
      	H: AQ3
      	D: AJ974
      	C: KJ7
 S: A94        	S: KQT8763
 H: 965        	H: 82
 D: T52        	D: ---
 C: 8632   		C: AT95
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
5D makes; 4H makes in practice.  All actions get us to making game.
--------------------------
      	S: 65
      	H: AQ8
      	D: AJ742
      	C: K86
 S: Q84        	S: AKT9732
 H: 9652   		H: 3
 D: ---        	D: T95
 C: AJT932 		C: 75
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
4H/5D make.  All actions get us to making game.
--------------------------
      	S: T8
      	H: A8
      	D: A72
      	C: AK8532
 S: K4 			S: AQ976532
 H: 6532   		H: Q9
 D: J954   		D: T
 C: JT6        	C: 97
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
4H/5D/6C make.  All actions get us to making game.
--------------------------
      	S: 64
      	H: AQ92
      	D: AJ5
      	C: KJ95
 S: K75        	S: AQT9832
 H: 865        	H: 3
 D: 74 			D: T92
 C: AT763      	C: 82
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
4H/5D make.  All actions get us to making game.
--------------------------
      	S: A83
      	H: A98
      	D: AT5
      	C: A986
 S: Q          	S: KT976542
 H: Q653   		H: 2
 D: J92        	D: 74
 C: KJ732      	C: T5
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
6NT/6H/6D make.  Double gets us to making game.  Showing D+H might get us to making slam.
--------------------------
      	S: A93
      	H: AQ93
      	D: 94
      	C: AJ97
 S: 82 			S: KQT7654
 H: 52 			H: 86
 D: A752   		D: JT
 C: K6532      	C: T8
      	S: J
      	H: KJT74
      	D: KQ863
      	C: Q4
3NT/4H/5D make.  All actions get us to making game.
--------------------------

And here is my code (for Thomas Andrew's Deal):

source lib/utility.tcl

south is "J KJT74 KQ863 Q4"

main {
  accept if {[open_1nt north] && [sound_preempt east spades]}
  reject
}

proc open_1nt {hand} {
  set hcp [hcp $hand]
  set ptn [$hand pattern]
  set shp [$hand shape]
  
  # 4333 or 4432, 15-17
  if {$ptn == "4 3 3 3" || $ptn == "4 4 3 2"} {
	accept if {$hcp > 14 && $hcp < 18}
	reject
	}
	
  # 5332 or 22(54) or 24(52), 14-16
  if {$ptn == "5 3 3 2" || $shp == "2 2 4 5" || $shp == "2 2 5 4" || $shp == "2 4 5 2" || $shp == "2 4 2 5"} {
	accept if {$hcp > 13 && $hcp < 17}
	reject
	}

  # 6m332, 13-16
  if { $ptn == "6 3 2 2" && ([diamonds $hand] == 6 || [clubs $hand] == 6) } {
	accept if {$hcp > 12 && $hcp < 17}
	reject
	}
	
  reject
  }

proc sound_preempt {hand suit} {
  set cards [$suit $hand]
  set hcp [hcp $hand]
  
  accept if {$cards > 6 && $hcp < 11 && ([Top5 $hand $suit] > 2 || $cards > 7)}
  reject
  }  

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2011-February-18, 13:54, said:

How is the south hand an awkward problem? I am never trying to get to 5D with 5 good hearts and such a good hand at MP, and even if I somehow doubled and partner bid 3N, I would still want to bid 4H.

Yes. So why not follow the route dbl-3NT-4♥, so that partner knows that you have only five of them, with an alternative place to play?

Quote

Playing 4 of a minor here as hearts and a minor seems really bad also, the arguments are not the same as over a 3S opener because:

1) With partner having shown a good hand, we need much less in the way of values to have a slam try in a minor (as opposed to over a 3S opener, where we need a lot).

And what about when we have a slam try with both red suits? By playing 4♦ as the red suits, I make our auctions worse when responder has a one-suited slam try, but better when he has a two-suited game hand *or* a two-suited slam-try. That seems a pretty good exchange.

Anyway, I can get some of it back by using 4♠ to show a one-suited slam-try in a minor (though I admit that I haven't got around to discussing this with anyone) .

Quote

2) We can survive much more often by bidding 4 of the major with 5 of them, since partner has guaranteed 2+ (unlike over a 3S opener where the main risk is playing a silly 5-1 fit after a 4H overcall).

5-2 fits also play poorly if you get forced early and the trumps don't break.

By "the arguments are the same", I meant that:
- Being able to show a two-suiter is useful
- Many one-suiters with a minor bid 3NT
- With most of the rest of the one-suiters it's OK to bid 5m.
- It's therefore rare that you want to make a natural bid of 4m

Quote

So the times we lose are more frequent, and the times we gain are less frequent.

I said that the arguments were the same, not that the situations were quantitatively identical.