[mich-b]

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2♦ was a generic GF (part of 2-way nmf)
Your agreement is that opener shows 3♠ rather than 4♥, responder can check for 4♥s by bidding 2NT which is a further "shape ask". Opener will rebid 3H with either 3433 or 3424.

I would like to ask if you have firm agreements about:
1. Does partner's 3♣ show 4 or 5 ♣s ?
2. Is this always Slam seeking , or perhaps something like 4315, trying to select the best game?
3. How should opener proceed? What you bid with the example hand?
4. Should opener rebid 3NT any time he has only 3 clubs?
5. If the answer to "4" is "NO" - what should responder do (with 4 clubs) to find out if he has a fit there or not?

Any thoughts are welcome.

[rhm]

mich-b, on 2011-February-16, 03:20, said:

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2♦ was a generic GF (part of 2-way nmf)
Your agreement is that opener shows 3♠ rather than 4♥, responder can check for 4♥s later if needed.

I consider this agreement dubious.

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I would like to ask if you have firm agreements about:
1. Does partner's 3♣ show 4 or 5 ♣s ?

Four. Can't responder be strong with 4 good ♣s?

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2. Is this always Slam seeking , or perhaps something like 4315, trying to select the best game?

Some play that game forcing means the bidding can stop in four of a minor. Not my cup of tea and surely not necessary when responder could have started with an invitational 2♣ instead. For me game forcing means what it says. Assuming that is what you play, I consider this question moot. In your case, if responder, say with 4315, is prepared to force to an 11 trick game in ♣, how can he not want to play 6♣, if you have good controls and nothing wasted in ♦? If he doesn't, he never had a game force in the first place.
I make that a simple rule:
If, in a game forcing sequence, an unlimited hand suggests a minor as trump at the 3 level, this hand always implies interest of playing six of that minor or in other words: If I know six of a minor is without chances I will never suggest a minor at the three level. There is always an alternative, usually bidding notrump. For example in this case responder could have continued with 2NT over 2♠ with no interest in 6♣.

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3. How should opener proceed? What you bid with the example hand?

3♥ now, you can not rule out that responder is short in ♦.

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4. Should opener rebid 3NT any time he has only 3 clubs?

No. In fact this tends to deny 4♥ and should therefor show 4 cards in ♣

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5. If the answer to "4" is "NO" - what should responder do (with 4 clubs) to find out if he has a fit there or not?

If opener does not bid 3♥, he more or less guarantees he is not 3=4=3=3, so must have 4 cards in ♣.
Over 3♥, responder can punt with 3♠. I would expect opener to bid 4♣ with a suitable 3=4=2=4 and otherwise 3NT. Of course if opener has a weak 4 card ♣ suit, with an honor in ♦ he may refrain to bid 4♣, but this might not be a bad thing.

Rainer Herrmann

[Poky]

mich-b, on 2011-February-16, 03:20, said:

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1. Does partner's 3♣ show 4 or 5 ♣s ?
2. Is this always Slam seeking , or perhaps something like 4315, trying to select the best game?
3. How should opener proceed? What you bid with the example hand?
4. Should opener rebid 3NT any time he has only 3 clubs?
5. If the answer to "4" is "NO" - what should responder do (with 4 clubs) to find out if he has a fit there or not?

1. 5♣. With just four he bids a "baronic" 2NT.
2. Trying to find the best spot.
3. 3♥
4. No!
5. Bid 2NT, obviously.

[aguahombre]

Poky, on 2011-February-16, 07:36, said:

5. Bid 2NT, obviously.

Apparently not obvious, Poky. OP states that a 3♥ continuation could be 3-4-3-3 or 3-4-2-4. So, with only four clubs, the non opening bidder still has not uncovered a club fit.

And when does opener get to distinguish this control-laden flat 13 from some crap-filled 12 count?

[MrAce]

mich-b, on 2011-February-16, 03:20, said:

I would like to ask if you have firm agreements about:
2. Is this always Slam seeking , or perhaps something like 4315, trying to select the best game?

Any thoughts are welcome.

If u give up on being able to play 3♣ instead of 1 NT(with 4M+5 or 6♣ weak hands), you can actually seperate these 2 types of hands ( slam going and only seeking best game hands)

1♣-1♠
1NT-3♣ one type of hand

1♣-1♠
1NT-2♦ followed by 3♣ other one

We play it as i wrote above, and i actually found a solution that covers the 4M+5-6♣ weak hands too.

1♣-1♠
1NT-2NT ( Shows 4♠+longer ♣ and a weak hand) 2 NT as an invite to 3 nt is not needed, since we start all invitation bids by 2♣

[mike777]

mich-b, on 2011-February-16, 03:20, said:

---

2♦ was a generic GF (part of 2-way nmf)
Your agreement is that opener shows 3♠ rather than 4♥, responder can check for 4♥s by bidding 2NT which is a further "shape ask". Opener will rebid 3H with either 3433 or 3424.

I would like to ask if you have firm agreements about:
1. Does partner's 3♣ show 4 or 5 ♣s ?
2. Is this always Slam seeking , or perhaps something like 4315, trying to select the best game?
3. How should opener proceed? What you bid with the example hand?
4. Should opener rebid 3NT any time he has only 3 clubs?
5. If the answer to "4" is "NO" - what should responder do (with 4 clubs) to find out if he has a fit there or not?

Any thoughts are welcome.

For me 3c is a mild slam try at least and shows 5 clubs veryvery often.

Now I rebid a simple 3h. wILL pass 3nt rebid by pard.

1nt limited my hand to 11-13
2d=art gf.
1c was 3+
2s=3s---

Note this whole 2/1 nmf xyz style looks much more for major fits or nt. Finding a club slam across from an 11-13 opening bal hand when responder only has 4c is not easy as this style is not optimized for that.


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