[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

West has shown a 543? hand, if you reg. raise with 3 card support,
you have add. interference, e.g. he may not be dead min, he has a
6430 hand.

East has shown 5 hearts, and obviously slam interest, for what ever
reason East did not want to make a cue bid.
I would take 5H as a quantitative invite for 6H, if East was interested
in trump quality, he could have bid 4NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[JLOGIC]

Phil, on 2011-January-09, 12:26, said:

3♥ gobbles up a lot of space with this pattern. Making an alternate lie with 3♣ might be better than trying to have 3♠ by responder cater to both "I love hearts" and "I don't know where to play". What pattern do you have in mind by responder where we are trying to back into 3N?

@Phil: I do not consider 3H to be a lie with 2254 and no spade stopper, it is just a normal bid to me. I do not understand using 3H as showing exactly 3 hearts and presumably extras if you always raise with 1354 to begin with. It is fine to "gobble up space" if a bid is more well defined. Call me simple, but with 3154 and no spade stopper I bid 3S, with 2254 and no spade stopper I bid 3H, and with 5-5 I bid 3C, and with 6-4 I bid 3D. It is not relevant to me that 3C is "cheaper" it will be impossibly undefined...knowing whether partner is 5-5 or not is a big difference. On the other hand your 3H bid will be too defined. It is pretty simple to me that over 3H you can bid 3S and let partner bid 3N with 2254 if he has that. It is pretty simple to me to play 3S as 3154 and no stopper. If I did want to dedicate 3H as showing 3 hearts though, I would certainly just add 2254 with no spade stopper to my 3S bid. Yes, again it eats up a lot of space, but it is a reasonably well defined bid. Personally I think the difference between 1 and 2 hearts is pretty important, so I am fine bidding 3H with that hand. People are way too concerned about preserving space and not enough about maximizing the utility of all of their collective bids. Obviously the cheaper bids should be less well defined (except in rare cases where frequency or the usefulness of certain information trumps this), but having balance is important. If your slightly cheaper bids are too undefined, and your next bids are overly defined, you will have issues.

Others (my partner Kevin, and I think maybe Fred indicated this before, not sure) think that the difference between Hx and xx is very important in these type of auctions, enough that you should only be bidding Hx and doing something else with xx. Fair enough, but it is unlikely that I have xx in both majors to go with my opening bid. If I didn't want to bid 3H, I would try 3S though. Some think 3S is better as showing an anti positional spade stopper like Axx, or as showing extras as Cascade said. If you think those things are important, you can bid 3C if you want, but I think that is too much of a payoff. Obviously you can do a ton of artificial things, for instance one obvious one is since 1354 is your LEAST likely hand type (especially if you would raise most hands directly with that shape), you could easily use 3S as showing that, and re-arrange your bids, etc etc. But then we're getting into artificiality and I assume that we are not trying to go there, and just go on the most "natural" thing to do here.

@Two4bridge: Of course 3H does not set hearts. Even if you play that it promises 3 which is fine, responder has not shown 5 hearts yet. All he has done is show 4+ hearts, and then show a game forcing hand. Opener is just trying to describe his hand, responder has not clarified his intentions yet. To set trumps, one must be able to know of a sure fit. Opener does not know this...

@Mgoetze:

That is why, out of necessity, over 3H:

4C is natural
4D is natural
4H is natural

4N should also be natural, not keycard, because responder could have, for example, 4423 with a 19 count (make it 18 if 19 is a slam force in your style). What else could he bid? He has no fit, and he has too much to bid 3N.

This leaves you 4S and 3S as your only bids. We will rule out 4S as keycard undiscussed, and just leave it undefined. To me it is "bridge logic" that the random bid is the one that you must bid with a slam try in hearts. What other bid could you make? If you agree with me that 3H could be 3 hearts, or 2254 no stopper, then 3S should also be available as a probe. This works out well.

I'm not sure what the general rules are. One is that the below 3N cuebid when a major suit fit is not yet established can always just be trying to get to 3N. It could also be an advanced cue in some auctions.

The other is that bridge logic dictates when you have no room to set trumps in one suit below game, and you have room to do so in every other suit, and you have one cuebid available, and no fit is established, that cuebid is, out of necessity, your slam try. In these cases it is a generic slam try, not a control showing slam try. A more well known example of this is:

1H-(2S)-?

Why is 3S a slam try in hearts? Because we have a bid for forcing with clubs, forcing with diamonds (3C and 3D). We have a bid for both minors, or a balanced hand without a fit (double). The only thing we don't have is a way to set hearts below game. For this reason, 3S is a slam try, and it does not promise or deny a control in spades as it is our only bid.

Obviously we don't often think "why is this bid a slam try" since it is well known, but it is just founded in bridge logic. 3S here is the same principle (combined with the other principle that it might be a 3N probe...that is why it is tricky, but this is not the only auction where a bid like 3S doubles as a 3N bid, or a slam try in a suit).

[JLOGIC]

In general figuring out what all the other bids mean is the correct approach to figuring out what a 5M jump means. But like I said in uncharted waters, I would totally expect (and be happy that my partner is a kind person) 5H is just generally invitational, and not wanting to mess around with the 3S stuff. If 3S did not exist, that is what 5H would mean, since it would be the only way to try for slam in hearts.

Let me give you another cute auction:

1D 1S
2C 2H
3H ?

I thought this was going to be the auction actually when I saw the thread. This came up recently. This auction is similar, but we are on firm ground that 3H always shows 4 hearts so there's no confusion there.

Still, now we have:

3N is natural
4C is natural
4D is natural
4H is natural

all of these must be true in normal bidding (artificial bidding works better here!). However, this auction is different because 3S is also natural! It is responder's suit. How else could he bid a 1 suited very strong hand in spades? Again, he showed spades, then showed a GF... Also opener could have 1 or 0 spades, and responder might need to know that in deciding whether to play 4S or 3n.

Additionally, we need 4N as natural for the same reasons I described in my last thread, responder can still have a hand with no fit that is too strong to bid 3N (remember, opener still has a wide range). What else could he do with 18 or 19?

So... what does responder do with a slam try in hearts?

Again I think it owuld be a good idea to play 4S as keycard in hearts, but you would never do that undiscussed...it might reasonably sound like you heard partner had short spades and now have no slam interest.

It is a bit ridiculous but in this auction, playing nothing special, surely 5H is just a general invite to 6, for the BRIDGE LOGIC reason that responder has no other way to try for slam in hearts.

That is what 5M jumps come down to, what were the other options? They are only usually very specific because there were a lot of other options.

[mgoetze]

Thanks for the explanation, Justin. Meanwhile...

JLOGIC, on 2011-January-10, 06:03, said:

@Phil: I do not consider 3H to be a lie with 2254 and no spade stopper, it is just a normal bid to me. I do not understand using 3H as showing exactly 3 hearts and presumably extras if you always raise with 1354 to begin with. It is fine to "gobble up space" if a bid is more well defined. Call me simple, but with 3154 and no spade stopper I bid 3S, with 2254 and no spade stopper I bid 3H, and with 5-5 I bid 3C, and with 6-4 I bid 3D. It is not relevant to me that 3C is "cheaper" it will be impossibly undefined...knowing whether partner is 5-5 or not is a big difference. On the other hand your 3H bid will be too defined.

Interesting argumentation on frequency grounds. Would it shift your thinking if you were in Europe, surrounded by people who hate 3-card raises (and for whom having 3 hearts would consequently not imply a maximum)?

[gwnn]

90% of my partners would lol at me for even thinking 4n is not rkcb, and the remaining 10% would just say it's interesting but way too exotic.

[gnasher]

mgoetze, on 2011-January-10, 12:15, said:

Interesting argumentation on frequency grounds. Would it shift your thinking if you were in Europe, surrounded by people who hate 3-card raises (and for whom having 3 hearts would consequently not imply a maximum)?

In the part of Europe where I live, raising with three-card support is completely normal.

[mgoetze]

gnasher, on 2011-January-10, 14:00, said:

In the part of Europe where I live, raising with three-card support is completely normal.

Wait I thought you live on an island somewhere off in the Atlantic Ocean!

[TWO4BRIDGE]

As usual, J-Lo's posts are well thought out and Justin makes compelling arguments.

But on a few points, I have to agree with PHIL ( pass the smelling salts, please ) although not on all things...lol ( I did re-read your posts, phil -- I now agree that 3H [ by Opener ] does not "agree Hts" ).

I think, as phil and others have stated, the 3♥ bid would be better served to show 3 cards -- NOT 2 ( but IMO not attach any "extras" meaning -- didn't Opener's 2C rebid after his 1D open deny little, if any, extras ? ) .

I think, if Opener has 2 cards Hts and no Sp-stop, he should rebid 3D or 3C -- the 3C being the last option as "could be only 4 cards" . Afterall, we have numerous cases where " Clubs get little or no respect ".

But here is my main argument against what I would label " the ambiguous 3H bid " ( as showing 2 or 3 cards ) . You have eliminated " room " for Responder to make a 3H bid with at least 6 cards ( or a good 5 card Ht suit like in the OP [ post # 9 ]: A K Q J x ); and have subsequently eliminated clarification of the 5-of-trump bid and have eliminated the use of any RKC-asking bid ! !
Allowing room for Responder to bid 3H would NOW allow suit agreement by Opener ( with 2 cards ) which would clarify 4NT ( or 4S! ) as RKC and 5H! as "asking for a Sp Ctrl ":

1D - 1H
2C - 2S!
3D ( or 3C ) - 3H
4H - 4NT( or 4S!) or 5H

[TWO4BRIDGE]

JLOGIC, on 2011-January-10, 06:09, said:

Let me give you another cute auction:

1D 1S
2C 2H
3H ?

I thought this was going to be the auction actually when I saw the thread. This came up recently. This auction is similar, but we are on firm ground that 3H always shows 4 hearts so there's no confusion there.

And now for Justin's other 4SGF auction containing the Ht suit.
I know he avoided "artificiality" , but I never do.
I have a possible simple solution ( somewhat analogous to the Muppet solution for the problem hand [5s/4h] in Puppet auctions ):

Switch the meanings of 2NT and 3H ! ! !

1D - 1S
2C - 2H!
??
..2S = have 3s

..2NT!= no 3s, but have 4h(w/4h Responder can now bid 3H[let the cuebidding begin]; anything else denies 4h)
..3H! = no 3s, no 4h, but have Ht-stop

..3D = no 3s, no Ht-stop, but have 6d/4c or good-5d/4c
..3C = no 3s, no Ht-stop, but have 5d/5c [ Edit: or not-so-good-5d/4c "catchall" ].