[wank]

Chalked up a nice 26 imps for this effort (teams of 8, cross-imps) after a club lead .

Who was more absurd?

---

We were playing strong NT with 4cM. Systemically it was an obvious 1♥ opening but it isn't the route of problem.

South feels north should have shown that his hand was crap at some point, by rebidding 2NT on the 3rd round or by refusing to cuebid over 4♦. At the end south raised 5♦ to 6 on the basis that North couldn't have 0 aces and must be bidding 5♦ in case south's 0/3 was really 0.

North bid 3♦ hoping to show his shape then sign off in 3NT over 3M. North felt guilty about cuebidding 4H with no aces but liked Kx of spades and thought blackwood would be a safe way to resolve any issues on the assumption it was impossible to be off 3 keys. The prospect of south bidding 6 to clarify 0 or 3 didn't occur to him as it was impossible for south to have 0 on the bidding.

[mgoetze]

wank, on 2010-November-21, 12:09, said:

We were playing strong NT with 4cM. Systemically it was an obvious 1♥ opening but it isn't the route of problem.

South feels north should have shown that his hand was crap at some point,

So uh, if you were playing a strong NT, does that not kind of imply that the 1NT rebid shows a weak NT? Such as 12-14? If so, why does South feel that North's hand was "crap" in this context?

I suggest South should bid 3♥ instead of 4♦. If this elicits 3NT, North has wasted heart values and 3NT might well be the right place. If this does not elicit 3NT, a diamond slam might be on the cards.

[mike777]

wank, on 2010-November-21, 12:09, said:

Chalked up a nice 26 imps for this effort (teams of 8, cross-imps) after a club lead .

Who was more absurd?

---

We were playing strong NT with 4cM. Systemically it was an obvious 1♥ opening but it isn't the route of problem.

South feels north should have shown that his hand was crap at some point, by rebidding 2NT on the 3rd round or by refusing to cuebid over 4♦. At the end south raised 5♦ to 6 on the basis that North couldn't have 0 aces and must be bidding 5♦ in case south's 0/3 was really 0.

North bid 3♦ hoping to show his shape then sign off in 3NT over 3M. North felt guilty about cuebidding 4H with no aces but liked Kx of spades and thought blackwood would be a safe way to resolve any issues on the assumption it was impossible to be off 3 keys. The prospect of south bidding 6 to clarify 0 or 3 didn't occur to him as it was impossible for south to have 0 on the bidding.

Yet another example of cuebidding disaster. Everyone was so focused on cuebidding that forced the north hand to rkc when the south hand should take charge. I thought the bidding was fine thru 4h over 4h Ithink south should just rkc and not cue 4s.

In any event south needs to pass 5d. South has reversed, made a slam try with 4d across from 12-14 nt and then cuebid. North knows south does not have zero aces.

btw north has a fine hand.

[ggwhiz]

Quote

I think south should just rkc and not cue 4s.

I agree. Not a fan of cue bidding first or second rounders but it works if SOMEBODY bids rkc in time. That's south.

However, North is a pooch too for bidding rkc when unable to handle a 5♥ response. A void in the south hand is not unlikely given the cue instead of rkc.

[Fluffy]

North had his first oportunity to show crap hand over 4♠, he should bid 5♦, this is the mistake IMO. Other bids are reasonable.

Instead of 4♦ both 4♣ and 4♥ are more accurate, should be picked instead.


EDIT: I forgot, there is no need to bid 6♦ to show 3 aces, 5NT or 5♥ works just as good, and might lead to 5NT wich is an easy make.

[jukmoi]

The bidding looks OK to me untill Souths sudden decision to override Norths attempt to place the contract in 5♦.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

what was 4S?

The main problem is, that the weak hand, that has nearly described itself, was
making the keycard ask.

South knew, that he wants to be in 6D, if he finds 1KC, he knowes all suit are
controlled, and he got a life sign from North - why is he bidding 4S instead of
4NT?

North wants to describe his shape, but opens 1C instead of 1H? Because of this
he never can show his shape, but this did not cause the result.

For that matter, if North thinks, that South has at least 3KC, he can always bid
5D, South will automatically raise 5D o 6D, if he holds 4KC.

I find the 4S bid more absurd, than 4NT followed by 5D in combination with the
argumation.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[vuroth]

wank, on 2010-November-21, 12:09, said:

South feels north should have shown that his hand was crap at some point, by rebidding 2NT on the 3rd round or by refusing to cuebid over 4♦.

I'm with mgoetze - what part of 12-14 balanced did south not understand? If south wants to assume north has 2 aces, that's fine, but he also needs 2 of the K♠, Q♦, K/Q of ♣ just to make it a 50/50 slam. Any heart wastage turns the slam into a longshot.

If N/S have discussed cuebids in sufficient detail to know whether 4♥ is a courtesy cue bid or a serious slam try, then maybe that's something, but in absence of a very clear understanding I think south needs to give up on the slam. Basically, the slam is only reasonable with a near-perfect 12-14 from north.

0.02. If I'm way off, I'd love to have it explained to me.

[FrancesHinden]

As our team were the victims of this, we discussed the auction on the way home. We all agreed that North had misbid. South had every right to raise 5D to 6D, because 4NT effectively drives to slam opposite 2 key cards: what was North planning to do after a 5H response? (I don't believe you and your partner had agreed that you could stop in 5NT on this auction.) From South's perspective, North could easily have had the ace of hearts instead of the KQJ.

Secondly, I really hate the 4H cuebid. It's all very well saying that you cue first and second round controls indiscriminately, but partner is known not to have much length in hearts. Of your 14 HCP, you have 5 in partner's suits, and the outside 9 HCP include no aces. Yes, you may have a maximum in points but you don't have a huge hand, you have an OK hand - the Kx of spades is nice. I prefer to cue 4S over 4D, which is a card in partner's second suit. That would probably generate a 4NT call from South, and a comfortable stop in 5D (assuming you don't have any way to play in 4NT).

[kgr]

FrancesHinden, on 2010-November-28, 14:38, said:

...
From South's perspective, North could easily have had the ace of hearts instead of the KQJ.
Secondly, I really hate the 4H cuebid. It's all very well saying that you cue first and second round controls indiscriminately, but partner is known not to have much length in hearts.
...

We have the agreement that after a 2-suited GF of partner , we only the short suit with an ace.
Not sure if this should apply here as well. ....probably.

[Fluffy]

Yes it does, I have the agreement not to cue kings where partner might have shortness, but it is an agreement

[luke warm]

Fluffy, on 2010-November-21, 16:42, said:

North had his first oportunity to show crap hand over 4♠, he should bid 5♦, this is the mistake IMO. Other bids are reasonable.

i would think his rebid was his first opportunity, and he showed it with 1NT, although i agree he shouldn't have RKC'd