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slam hunt bidding over constructive 3NT

Poll: what's 4C? (27 member(s) have cast votes)

If you're not one who never uses Gerber, nor insists 4C is always Gerber, what would 4C mean after 1NT(14-17) - P - 3H(6+ hearts, GF & slam interest) - P - 3N(exactly 2 hearts) - P - ?

  1. Gerber (2 votes [7.41%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

  2. 1st round control (14 votes [51.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 51.85%

  3. 2nd suit (4 votes [14.81%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.81%

  4. other (7 votes [25.93%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.93%

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#1 User is offline   rq4mulae 

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Posted 2010-November-15, 01:33

Secondary question: would you make the 3 bid holding KQJ9 - KT98xx - KQ9 ?
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#2 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2010-November-15, 02:20

Hi,

#1 I guess 6c+ means 6+ hearts.
#2 The answer depends partially on your agreement set, do you play Transfer / Texas transfer?
If you do, 4C is not needed to show a 2nd suit, simply start with 3D, followed by 3C.
So in the end my vote goes to 4C being a cue (we play mixed cues, so 4C could be 2nd round control
- but look at your cue bidding style, and you know the answer).
We also play, that the first cu showes an honor, so 4C showes values.
If you would play tranfer, than 2D - followed by a 4C would show a club shortage, a so called auto
splinter, so this would mean, so that would strength the case for 4C showing values.

Regarding your 2nd question - no, you have 4 spades, this means Stayman.

With kind regards
Marlowe
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#3 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-November-15, 06:33

Your hand has either 3 or 5 suits.
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#4 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2010-November-15, 07:01

So I assume 1N 3H, 3N 4C 3H being slamish. 4C is a cue bid for me as 3H should be single suited.
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#5 User is offline   mfa1010 

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Posted 2010-November-15, 07:20

We need to know the system context.

Usually transfer then 4m is splinter. I would assume 4 was a cuebid still trying for slam in a hand w/o shortages.
Michael Askgaard
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#6 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2010-November-15, 10:25

Q1) I prefer 1st or 2nd round control Qs
Q2) given that partner has 2 you always have oppositional possible holdings that produce a trump loser and you have some quantity of holdings that guarantee 2 trump losers. With that and the higher frequency of 14 and 15 HCP holding I would not try to go past 4.
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#7 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-November-16, 02:20

- 1st or 2nd round control
- In order to respond to your 2nd question I need to be able to interprete the hand. What's the void??
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#8 User is offline   rq4mulae 

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Posted 2010-November-16, 22:49

Thanks, Marlowe:

#1 I guess 6c+ means 6+ hearts.

Poll amended to clarify: yes, 6+ hearts


#2 The answer depends partially on your agreement set, do you play Transfer / Texas transfer?
If you do, 4C is not needed to show a 2nd suit, simply start with 3D, followed by 3C.
So in the end my vote goes to 4C being a cue (we play mixed cues, so 4C could be 2nd round control
- but look at your cue bidding style, and you know the answer).
We also play, that the first cu showes an honor, so 4C showes values.
If you would play tranfer, than 2D - followed by a 4C would show a club shortage, a so called auto
splinter, so this would mean, so that would strength the case for 4C showing values.

We play both Jacoby & Texas transfers but hand described would be too strong for Texas by mutual agreement. The idea of a jump into new suit as a splinter has some appeal, but would bypass spades in this case so might cause confusion if an attempt made later to show spade control.


Regarding your 2nd question - no, you have 4 spades, this means Stayman.

We reserve Stayman for 5-4 or 4-4 if holding both.


With kind regards
Marlowe
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#9 User is offline   rq4mulae 

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Posted 2010-November-16, 22:57

View Postgwnn, on 2010-November-15, 06:33, said:

Your hand has either 3 or 5 suits.





Thanks, gwnn
So, you can't read what's written between my lines, where it's obvious to me? Posted Image

To be more specific: KQJ9 - KT98xx - KQ9
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#10 User is offline   rq4mulae 

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Posted 2010-November-16, 23:05

View Postmcphee, on 2010-November-15, 07:01, said:

So I assume 1N 3H, 3N 4C 3H being slamish. 4C is a cue bid for me as 3H should be single suited.


Thanks, mcphee:

That's a good point, and since this hand is not, it wouldn't qualify for 3 response by that standard.
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#11 User is offline   rq4mulae 

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Posted 2010-November-16, 23:10

Thanks, mfa1010:



We need to know the system context.

Hand and auction occurred playing 2/1 but I know of no reason why it couldn't apply to SA as well, nor a version of K-S using transfers.
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#12 User is offline   rq4mulae 

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Posted 2010-November-16, 23:29

Thanks, pooltuna:


Q2) given that partner has 2 you always have oppositional possible holdings that produce a trump loser and you have some quantity of holdings that guarantee 2 trump losers. With that and the higher frequency of 14 and 15 HCP holding I would not try to go past 4.
[/quote]

Very valid observation. And to me it suggests that Jacoby 2 is best 1st step - permitting a superaccept - and a jump rebid of 4 after 2 could not be harmful in case opener is loaded with club values.
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#13 User is offline   rq4mulae 

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Posted 2010-November-16, 23:31

Thanks, free:

- In order to respond to your 2nd question I need to be able to interprete the hand. What's the void??
[/quote]

I'm learning to be more specific. Posted Image club void.
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#14 User is offline   mfa1010 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 07:49

View Postrq4mulae, on 2010-November-16, 23:10, said:

Thanks, mfa1010:



We need to know the system context.

Hand and auction occurred playing 2/1 but I know of no reason why it couldn't apply to SA as well, nor a version of K-S using transfers.

I was mostly thinking about NT structure.

Normally one shows a singlesuited slamtry with a shortage by transfer and then splinter:
1NT-2-2-4

With the actual hand I would not insist on hearts but instead show spades also:
1NT-2-2-2
or whatever NT structure I use.
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#15 User is offline   jikl 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 16:24

1NT - 2 - 2* - 2

for me also. The reason for the * is that you can have the really good news of a super accept here.

Sean
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#16 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-November-21, 07:40

As for the 2nd Question...

A Stayman sequence seems obvious:

KQJ9
KT98xx
KQ9
void

1NT - 2C
2D - 3S ( Smolen, ostensibly 4s/5h )
3NT ( 3s/2h) - 4D! ( Texas-after-Smolen showing 4s/6h )
4H - ??
pass
4NT ( RKC for Hts)
5C!/5D! ( Exclusion)

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#17 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2010-November-21, 09:47

I don't have a strong opinion on the first question in the poll, as I do not normally play the 3H response that way.
As to the example hand in the follow-up, I use all direct 4-level responses to 1N as Roman Keycard Voidwood, so

1N-4C = void spade or {void club with long major} puppet to 4D
1N-4C-4D-4H = void club, puppet to 4S
1N-4C-4D-4H-4S-4N = exclusion RCKB with Hearts as trumps.

I recognise that Spades (or in an extreme case Diamonds) might actually play better, but I pay off to those occasions in favour of the increased accuracy when that is not the case. I could by a different route show a GF 4-5-3-1 hand (or similar) and then continue to force, but I am not convinced that relinquishing the captaincy is a good idea in this case.
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Posted 2010-November-21, 16:55

If I play 3H as 6+ slammish, opener's rebids for me are cuebids; 3NT would specifically carry implications of the lack of a fitting trump honour; and the continuations would be cuebids. The 3H bid would absolutely never be a hand that still wants to discuss what trumps is. With 4-6-0-3, my system is 2C followed by 4D transfer over 2D.
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Posted 2010-December-05, 03:19

Seems to me in the absence of some system agreement, 4 has to be a Q bid showing first round control, probably the ace. Pard's 3NT bid didn't improve my hand. If aces were all I needed to know, I would have bid 4 Gerber the first time. Sounds to me like the 4 bidder is saying: "I am still interested in a slam, and I need your opinion. Quick tricks, controls and a doubleton honor are gold. A soft and ratty 14 or 15 with a small doubleton should sign off."
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#20 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-December-05, 10:12

4 is a cue conveying the message "I do not care you have poor support". If responder simply wanted to set trump and ace for key cards, he would have bid 4 and then 4N. Responder also has a flaw somewhere where asking for key cards is not practical, like a two-loser suit, or a void perhaps.

On the actual hand, responder made a poor choice with 3. What is wrong with 2?

I've never liked the 1N - 3M treatment as forcing and slammish. Isn't this one of the reasons we play transfers?
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