[Gerben47]

Scoring: IMP

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Our unsuccessful auction (new partnership with world class partner) was:

1♣ - 1♦
1NT - 2♠
3♦ - 4♦
5♦ - pass

Any thoughts how to get the right information from partner? Or just drive to slam and hope for the best?

BTW at the other table the auction 1NT - 6NT was more successful...

[Free]

Just start with 1♣-2♦, and sit back and relax...

[Gerben47]

I would've probably figured out not to pass if partner made that bid on me, but with "junior" all over my profile can my partner expect me to make a strong jump shift, especially when I've written again and again in the forum that strong jump shifts are no good?

This situation is sort of special, since if you play Polish Club or similar you do not want to bid 1♦ on this and sort it out later, so in such a system a strong jump shift makes sense. But we weren't playing that.

This hand is not a counterexample of the badness of SJS, my question is simply how to continue after 1♣ - 1♦ - 1NT. My personal feeling is that opener should not have signed off after 4♦, and perhaps 3♣ instead of 2♠ would've worked better on this hand.

[EricK]

Gerben47, on Aug 20 2004, 09:58 AM, said:

I would've probably figured out not to pass if partner made that bid on me, but with "junior" all over my profile can my partner expect me to make a strong jump shift, especially when I've written again and again in the forum that strong jump shifts are no good?

This situation is sort of special, since if you play Polish Club or similar you do not want to bid 1♦ on this and sort it out later, so in such a system a strong jump shift makes sense. But we weren't playing that.

This hand is not a counterexample of the badness of SJS, my question is simply how to continue after 1♣ - 1♦ - 1NT. My personal feeling is that opener should not have signed off after 4♦, and perhaps 3♣ instead of 2♠ would've worked better on this hand.

Do you not have a natural way to force to game after a 1NT rebid?

If not, that would appear to be a flaw in the system. Maybe as a default you should play exactly the same system over a 1NT rebid as you do over a 1NT opening.

Eric

[whereagles]

Ask your world class pard why he didn't cue bid his ace of spades with a max hand and nice controls...

[bearmum]

Gerben47, on Aug 20 2004, 01:19 PM, said:

Dealer: South Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ Q84 ♥ Q ♦ AK9863 ♣ KQJ ♠ A32 ♥ K9 ♦ QJT ♣ AT876

Our unsuccessful auction (new partnership with world class partner) was:

1♣ - 1♦
1NT - 2♠
3♦ - 4♦
5♦ - pass

Any thoughts how to get the right information from partner? Or just drive to slam and hope for the best?

BTW at the other table the auction 1NT - 6NT was more successful...

WHO is "world class" ? N or S? IF world class player was N then HE/SHE is TOTALLY responsible if partnership does NOT reach slam

Over 1♣ IF I was N I would bid TWO diamonds FORCING to GAME at least opposite a MINIMUM opener (and I can see that 1NT 6NT is a good contract IF playing 1NT as less than 15)

After the force I think we end up in 6NT

[luke warm]

Gerben47, on Aug 20 2004, 02:19 AM, said:

<!-- PARTNERSNS begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> South </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> Both </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> Q84 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> Q </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AK9863 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> KQJ </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> A32 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> K9 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> QJT </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> AT876 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- PARTNERSNS end -->
Any thoughts how to get the right information from partner? Or just drive to slam and hope for the best?

i can tell you how it'd go for me

1NT : 2D (12-14 : GF)
3C : 3D (5 clubs : asking)
3S : 4C (3235 : control ask)
4S : 4NT (5 controls : spiral scan)
5NT : 6D or 6NT, but iffy (5NT=top club/spade, one of top 3 diamond/heart)

ok, responder knows (after the 5NT bid) that opener has ♠A and ♥K or vice versa, along with the ♣A (5 controls), and the ♦Q... from his view, 6NT might not withstand a heart attack (depending on how diamonds split, tho there are 9 between the two hands, with the A, K)... so 6D (might not be good playing matchpoints)

[pclayton]

Here's how it goes for me in my weak NT partnership:

1♣-1♦
1N-3♦
3♠-3N
4♦-4♥
5♦-6♦

I think the South hand is a little too good for a 12-14 NT.

The unusual stuff:

1. 3♦ is a slam try (part of 'xyz')
2. 4♥ is kickback, and 5♦ showed 2 w/Q.

[Fluffy]

With my 2/1 partner it would go this way:

1♣-1♦
1NT-3♦
3♥/♠-.....


And probably ends in 6♦.

If you don´t play 3♦ as GF then you probably play 2♣ as stayman:

1♣-1♦
1NT-2♣
2♦-3♦
3♥/♠-......

If you don´t play 2♣ stayman then you aren´t playing walsh.... then you know partner has many minor cards wich can be enough to jump to 6♦ by yourself

[1eyedjack]

Slam SHOULD be easier to reach after a 1C-1D-1N start than after a 1N opener. In the former case responder has shown something of his Diamond suit below 1N, and opener's distributions are more restricted than in a 1N opener. Which initial sequence you are stuck with depends on your 1N opening range. Whether or not you in fact find it easier via 1C depends on the extent by which you have taken advantage of this information in designing your continuations.

After either sequence I can as responder choose between:
(1) Captaining the auction and initiating GF relays, or
(2) Describing my hand as a GF or better Diamond single-suiter (6+) with a Heart shortage.

I see that Luke Warm has looked at the position from the viewpoint of the 1N opener alone and chooses to go down route (1) above (responder captains). I have not thought too hard about Luke's sequences, but I am not sure that it is a very confident sequence. At one extreme opener could have Jxx, AK, xxx, Axxxx. I think it is fair to discount extreme hands (if you have to), but relays are supposed to do that for you. And that hand has 5 controls. Would you bid slam with only 4 controls? This could make opposite as little as Axx, xx, QJx, Axxxx.

When deciding between method (1) and (2) above I tend to the view that in the long term it is normally better to go via route (1) if responder is balanced, route (2) if responder is distributional. If responder is distributional then his actual distribution will have considerable influence on opener re-evaluating how his honours are working or wasted. If you go down route (1) then you tend to find out opener's complete distribution first, perhaps max v min, total controls etc but by the time you start asking about specific suits in order to determine whether his values are well placed you tend to be too high.

If responder has a distributional hand with considerable extra values, expecially with a void rather than singleton, then it can be right for responder to take charge. On this hand I would tend to assume that the Queen of Hearts is wasted and would go through route 2, ie responder showing a GF single-suiter with H shortage. I still don't think slam is going to be easy to find, as opener will get discouraged by the Heart Kx. I guess it is up to responder to make another slam try after opener discourages, but it is all a bit vague.

There is more of a case for responder relaying after 1C-1D-1N than after 1N opener, perhaps, because opener has already gone so much further in the shape definitions by the time of the 1N rebid.

[Free]

Quote

i can tell you how it'd go for me

1NT : 2D (12-14 : GF)
3C : 3D  (5 clubs : asking)
3S : 4C  (3235 : control ask)
4S : 4NT  (5 controls : spiral scan)
5H : 6D or 6NT, but iffy  (top C, top S : placing)

ok, responder knows (after the 5H bid) that opener has ♠A and ♥K or vice versa, along with the ♣A (5 controls)... from his view, 6NT might not withstand a heart attack (depending on how diamonds split, tho there are 9 between the two hands, with the A, K)... so 6D (might not be good playing matchpoints)

Jimmy, you're a liar! You play 10-13, so you can't open this one with 1NT

[luke warm]

hehe... i'm playing 12-14 more because i can't find anyone brave nuff (cept for you) to play the mini... maybe you can tell everyone that it's the *opps* who need to worry about the mini, and not the ones playing it

[jtfanclub]

Gerben47, on Aug 19 2004, 07:19 PM, said:

1♣ - 1♦
1NT - 2♠
3♦ - 4♦
5♦ - pass

So I take it I'm the only crazy person again...who thinks that the 2♠ bid should either show monster shape or monster points when not playing SJS? I mean, if you have 15 hcp and four spades, you should be bidding 3C, 3D, or 3NT not 2♠.


My bidding would go...
1♣ 1♦
1NT 2♠
3♠ 4♣
4NT 5♠
6NT

3 SP says "if you're 6-5, then I like spades"
4NT is RKC in clubs, which makes life easy. Still, it's not tough to add up points and reach 6NT anyways.

But then, I am crazy...

[inquiry]

I think you should open 1NT, not 1♣, but then I play 14-16 1NT (and when forced to play 15-17, I tend to strecth the count to 14 with a 5332 distribution and a couple of 10's). However, I will assume 15-17 strict 1Nt. The bidding I would suggest is....

1♣ - 1♦ (not playing strong jump shift)
1NT 2♦ (two diamonds is artificial game force
3♦ - 3♥ (three hearts is taken as a ♥ stopper
3N - 4♦ (3N = spade stopper, must be king or ace, 4di = minorwood
4N - 6♦ (4N = 2 keycards plus diamond queen)
Pass

At mp, you would want to get to 6NT instead, perhaps, but at imps, 6♦ is an excellent contract that makes if partners hearts are JTx, which they surely could be, or worse. The 1NT-6NT bidders don't know if you off two quick hearts or two quick spades. Partner could have AK in one major and small in the other, rather than split honors. The auction above, you KNOW about a high spade. Still slam is not 100%, if your partner can be much weaker. So you might try an invite to 4NT over 3NT (instead of minorwood)... with excellent 14, your partner will keep bidding, and then you end up in 6NT.

Ben

[hrothgar]

jtfanclub, on Aug 21 2004, 07:05 PM, said:

Gerben47, on Aug 19 2004, 07:19 PM, said:

1♣ - 1♦
1NT - 2♠
3♦ - 4♦
5♦ - pass

So I take it I'm the only crazy person again...who thinks that the 2♠ bid should either show monster shape or monster points when not playing SJS? I mean, if you have 15 hcp and four spades, you should be bidding 3C, 3D, or 3NT not 2♠.

The 1NT rebid does not deny 4S.

Are you sure that you don't want to rethink your conclusions regarding 2 spades?

[TimG]

Gerben47, on Aug 19 2004, 07:19 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

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Our unsuccessful auction (new partnership with world class partner) was:

1♣ - 1♦
1NT - 2♠
3♦ - 4♦
5♦ - pass

I think the auction was going pretty well through 4♦. Why opener didn't cue-bid his spade ace on the way is beyond me. If it was because he was fearful of playing 4♠ (how much clearer can it be that diamonds are trumps) then how about 5♣?

North could have bid 4♣ over 3♦ which might have made things easier (as it turns out) for opener, but it's hard to fault him for setting trumps and asking partner to cue-bid.