[Cascade]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South
 -     1♣   1♥   Pass
 2♥   3♣   ?



Who if anyone should bid 3♥?

[EricK]

Cascade, on Aug 15 2004, 09:16 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South
- 1♣ 1♥ Pass
2♥ 3♣ ?



Who if anyone should bid 3♥?

I think West should do more than simply raise to 2♥. Either 1♠, hoping to supoort ♥ later (in which case East can compete to 3♥ based on double fit), or 2♣ showing more than a pre-emptive raise.

Without that, neither player has a 3♥ bid. East can't reraise especially if partner would raise to 2♥ on xxxx Jxx Kxxx xx or similar. West can't bid to 3♥ on his own in case partner has xxx Axxxx Axx xx.

Eric

[whereagles]

Dunno... maybe West, due to doubleton and non-vuln?

[epeeist]

Here's my intermediate view:

It seems a no-brainer that East should bid 3♥ (at least, under SAYC).

East's original overcall showed 8-16 HCP, I believe only a 4-card major required for overcall. Knowing this, West still raised East to 2 ♥.

East actually has 14 HCP (even though 2 are in QT♣ doubleton), and a 5-card heart suit headed by the AK, much stronger than West should have expected for the raise to 2♥. Also, EW are not vulnerable and scoring is IMPs -- so even 3♥ doubled one down only -100 vs. -110 (0 IMPs) if 3♣ makes (or -100 vs. +50 if it doesn't, still not a huge difference at IMPs).

I agree West should have bid 1♠, as a previous poster suggested, with a nice 5-card suit and only 3-card support (since East might have only 4 cards in ♥ for the overcall), and with South having passed, it's possible from West's point of view that NT might be a possibility if East has the right stoppers (and North's bid could have been on as few as 3 ♣ if using 5-card majors) -- so showing ♠ at the 1-level advisable. But that's a judgment call, West might have thought "Given p has at most 16 points, and more likely 10-12, we probably don't have game, if I bid 2♥ North might decide not to bid at the 3-level and we'll buy the contract".

[inquiry]

Cascade, on Aug 15 2004, 05:16 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South
 -     1♣   1♥   Pass
 2♥   3♣   ?



Who if anyone should bid 3♥?

Neither EAST nor WEST should bid 3♥ (if not pushed).

Ben

[Free]

Funny, lately I agree more and more with Ben . I don't think in the current bidding anyone should bid 3♥. It's a lucky coïncident that you have such nice double fit.

After an overcall, West is leader in this bidding. If he supports to 2♥, then that's TO PLAY, whatever my strength is! Only extra trump length can convince me to bid on. With this balanced hand (ok, max values, but who cares?) it's certainly not a 3♥ worth. My partners support with 0+HCP to 2-level, because we have LOTT protection
The only fingerpointing could be done to West imo. He has a pretty nice hand, but imo it's not worth an invitational hand. Only other bid I see for West is 1S, and then you might find 3S or 3H. However, the decision is for East to support at 3♠...

[whereagles]

Bidding 1S, intending to support hearts later, sure is more descriptive.. However, one must consider the possibility of opener bidding a number of clubs. What if it goes..

(1C) 1H p 1S
(2C) p (3C) ??

or

(1C) 1H p 1S
(3C) p p ??

Now you wish you'd had bid 2H instead of 1S.

In the original auction with 2H, one might still be guessing whether or not to try 3H for a make or 1 down, but after 1S the situation seems to be considerably worse. This is why I think 2H is superior to 1S, unless of course, your methods enable you to show support + spade suit while remaining at the two-level.

[flytoox]

whereagles, on Aug 16 2004, 03:15 PM, said:

Bidding 1S, intending to support hearts later, sure is more descriptive.. However, one must consider the possibility of opener bidding a number of clubs. What if it goes..

(1C) 1H p 1S
(2C) p (3C) ??

or

(1C) 1H p 1S
(3C) p p ??

Now you wish you'd had bid 2H instead of 1S.

In the original auction with 2H, one might still be guessing whether or not to try 3H for a make or 1 down, but after 1S the situation seems to be considerably worse. This is why I think 2H is superior to 1S, unless of course, your methods enable you to show support + spade suit while remaining at the two-level.

more likely is that you respond 1S and all pass. I think 1S is very bad bridge, though it may work here.

Hongjun

[daswallow]

It seems like 3h is not a good contract, whilst 3c may be going down.
So letting them play 3c seems ok to me...

[Trpltrbl]

Neither side I think .

Mike

[luis]

I think west should bid 1♠ instead of 2♥ it can be useful to disclose a better fit in spades or a double fit hand and it usggest a better lead than a heart to the Jack (!).
After bidding 1SP you can bid 2♥ later if you have room. Many times they will be only at 2♣ and you can bid 2♥ completing a very good description of the hand. If they are at 3♣ then you can pass or bid 3♥ depending on the atmosphere.

[Trpltrbl]

I agree with Luis, that's a much better bid.
To bad I forgot to mention it

Mike

[EricK]

I have a point to make about West repsonding 1♠.

It seems there are two main styles to responding to partner's overcall.

The first says I will not rescue my partner unless/until he has been doubled. For these people a new suit opposite partner's overcall will be at least constructive, certainly inviting (but not forcing) partner to bid on if more than minimum, and will often be based on a partial fit (Hx), or a genuine but weak fit (xxx).

The second group says since I will always support with support (using fit jumps, splinters, cue-raises, pre-emptive raises and so on if necessary), a new suit bid is almost a rescue. It says to partner, this might very well be a better place to play 1♥ (or whatever), and will normally be based on a misfit.

I am firmly in the first camp, so for me 1♠ is a good, decriptive bid, which will help partner judge the fit.

If you are in the second camp, I can understand your worrying that 1♠ might end the auction, or that partner won't know what to do if opps compete further.

Eric

[Fluffy]

On my style 1♠ response followed by 2♥ after 1NT will show a limit invitational, while over 2♣/♦ just 2 cards, neither of them describes the hand at all so 1♠ is not an option.

Nobody has to bid 3♥ since what makes it a good contract is an unknown double fit.

[paulhar]

daswallow, on Aug 16 2004, 12:03 PM, said:

It seems like 3h is not a good contract, whilst 3c may be going down.
So letting them play 3c seems ok to me...

I agree.

Neither has an extra trump or exciting distribution and both of them might think that their minor honor in clubs would decrease the number of total trumps on the hands. Normally you would want to bid 3 over 3 with 17 total trumps but the opponents don't necessarily have a fit and neither East nor West can be sure that N/S's club fit isn't 6-1.

[whereagles]

EricK, on Aug 17 2004, 06:59 PM, said:

If you are in the second camp, I can understand your worrying that 1♠ might end the auction, or that partner won't know what to do if opps compete further.

That 1S might end the auction is the least of concerns. Much worse is the fact that 1S fails to mention the only thing might help pard in opps compete: the heart fit.

[luke warm]

Cascade, on Aug 15 2004, 11:16 PM, said:

Dealer: North Vul: NS Scoring: IMP

♠ AQ542 ♥ J98 ♦ T72 ♣ J5 ♠ KT8 ♥ AKT63 ♦ Q95 ♣ QT

West  North  East  South
 -     1♣   1♥   Pass
 2♥   3♣   ?



Who if anyone should bid 3♥?

on this bidding (imo) east should pass.. this says "i have my bid but no extras in distribution or defense".. now west should pass or double (i can't see bidding 3H here, that would promise extras in dist or hcp)... pass says "my hand is as i bid it" and double says "i have more for my bid to this point, via defense"

this leaves it up to east whether or not to pull... this can be dangerous, but i think it's a good way to play, especially at matchpoints... some bottoms, yeah, but a whole lot of tops (imho)

as west i'd have bid 1S to begin with tho, supporting later (if able)... this seems to place partner in a better position to judge what to do

[EricK]

whereagles, on Aug 20 2004, 03:05 PM, said:

EricK, on Aug 17 2004, 06:59 PM, said:

If you are in the second camp, I can understand your worrying that 1♠ might end the auction, or that partner won't know what to do if opps compete further.

That 1S might end the auction is the least of concerns. Much worse is the fact that 1S fails to mention the only thing might help pard in opps compete: the heart fit.

If you don't rescue partner from his own overcalls, then a change of suit will imply tolerance for his suit a lot of the time.

A fit in his suit is not necessarily the only thing of use to partner. He might have a fit in your suit!

Eric

[paulhar]

luke warm, on Aug 20 2004, 10:22 AM, said:

and double says "i have more for my bid to this point, via defense"

this leaves it up to east whether or not to pull... this can be dangerous, but i think it's a good way to play, especially at matchpoints... some bottoms, yeah, but a whole lot of tops (imho)

You're implying that West's double suggests that it's E/W's hand - and considering the garbage required for most expert's one level overcalls, that seems like a pretty dangerous assumption, especially at IMP's. Since you're lacking a fourth trump, South could easily have enough in hearts to double.

As far as defense, West appears to have one trick, maybe two if dummy surprisingly produces the spade king. The jack of clubs is also a small plus on defense. Your double requires partner to have four defensive tricks for his one level overcall to leave it in. Wow!

Since on the auction (1C) 1H (P) 2H (3C) P (P), the 2H bidder can just about never think that it's the heart side's hand, it seems silly to play double there as 'cards' (unless your one level overcalls are sound - showing opening bids.) IMO, double here should say 'I think I can beat 3C opposite a crappy overcall', usually a hand that downgraded to only a 2H bid because of poorly placed club honors, for example: A6, 743, Q92, KJ976. Despite the Walrus's 11 count here, I think this hand is only a 2H raise because of the downgraded club honors, but I think I can beat 3C.

[1eyedjack]

I would leave them in 3C, but if either of East or West should take the push to 3H then it has to be West. East has nothing more to say. West has concealed the Spade suit which may or may not have been right but having concealed it he should be alive to the possibility of a double fit. Also, it is more important for the player in direct seat (East) to have some undisclosed extras in order to take action in front of partner.