[inquiry]

Scoring: MP

Submitted by Hanoi5

Bidding Comments: East opens 2♠, EW pass after that (except West doubles 2NT or 3NT for penalty)

Hanoi comments: 15. A very interesting deal where the best action is to let them play. East opens a weak 2S and West holds the bomb but decides to pass all the time (unless N/S decide to hang themselves in NT, in which case West will double). 3C, 10; 2S(N), 9; 2NT(X), 3

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[hrothgar]

We hung ourselves in NT, but the double made it very easy to retreat into clubs...

[jdonn]

3♣ here via lebensohl after gib doubled 2♠ in balancing position.

[cherdanno]

How is defending 2S a 9? It will lose to everyone in 3C, which is probably half the field.

The bidding script was really weird btw, why would West double a 2NT Lebensohl but not double any 3-level contract?

[JLOGIC]

I'm not sure but it seems like 3C by south is better than 3C by north just because given the X of 2N and the 2S opener we know that west will have a spade void and the DA and likely the HAK. Seems like having him on lead can only be good, rather than the other guy.

Also, I think defending 2S doubled or undoubled is bad. 2S is going to make.

[kayin801]

jdonn, on Sep 29 2010, 05:24 PM, said:

3♣ here via lebensohl after gib doubled 2♠ in balancing position.

This. Pass was REALLY tempting except it's a bidding contest

[JLOGIC]

I think passing with 97xxx w/w is horrible when you have a reasonable alternative QJxx and a reasonable suit. I mean aside from the obv them making 2S (which is not unlikely at all with this horrible trump stack...), we might only beat them 1 when we can make 110 in general.

I feel like I'm really aggro at passing these doubles but it would not occur to me on this hand. Just because you have 5 trumps doesn't mean you have tricks.

[tgoodwinsr]

JLOGIC is absolutely right about passing the double of two spades -- this from someone who did that, and paid the price.

[Mbodell]

tgoodwinsr, on Sep 29 2010, 06:49 PM, said:

JLOGIC is absolutely right about passing the double of two spades -- this from someone who did that, and paid the price.

I definitely considered it for a long time because of the shape of my hand, but then I started picturing hands I'd need partner to have to set them, and decided to leb to 3♣.

[hanp]

Agree that 3C from the south should beat 3C from the north.

[Cyberyeti]

JLOGIC, on Sep 29 2010, 07:56 PM, said:

I'm not sure but it seems like 3C by south is better than 3C by north just because given the X of 2N and the 2S opener we know that west will have a spade void and the DA and likely the HAK. Seems like having him on lead can only be good, rather than the other guy.

Also, I think defending 2S doubled or undoubled is bad. 2S is going to make.

Yeah, but how many tricks do you think you make in clubs. Very likely only 6 against 140, I think it's quite likely one of the hearts is offside, I'd have a crack at 3♣ with void, AKxxx, AQJxx, xxx if my weak 2s are fairly sound and get a trump on the table.

And yes 3♣ by S is a lot better than 3♣ by N, but not that great.

[jdonn]

I don't see how pass is tempting in a bidding contest. Maybe partner is - AKxx Axx AKxxxx?!

I think probably 3♣ by south should just be a point more than by north. And defending 2♠ or 2♠X should be almost nothing.

[rogerclee]

If you pass a takeout double, catch partner with a balanced hand with two spade honors and no 5 card suit, and they are playing for overtricks, then your pass probably was not very good.

[jdonn]

Not to mention it's a reopening double not even direct seat? I mean, lol?

[inquiry]

I agree with the concept that the scores suggested need adjusting. Here is how this one was bid, and the scores I have assigned.

3CN jdonn/gib
3CN ant590/cryzeejim
3CN bid_em_up/TylerE
3CN sohcahtoa/east4evil
3CN Karlson/threenobob
3CN olegru/driver733
3CN bluecalm/redds
3CN MBodell/Javabean
3CS gnasher/catch22
3CS hanp/jlall
3CS cherdano/rogerclee
3CS awn/elianna
3CS Hrothgar/Free
2SE peachy/Ig62
2SEx wackojack/flycycle
2SEx TimG/TgoodwinSr


3CS = 9
3CN = 6
2SE = 2
2SEx = 1

[TimG]

I'm curious why 3♣ won't also be doubled. If I were West and had decided to pass partner's 2♠, I'd be doubling 3♣ (and leading a trump if I was on lead -- even though that doesn't seem to be best double dummy, it still leads to 300).

Even if you don't consider a double of 3♣, some EW will score +150 defending 3♣ while they would only score +110 or +140 playing in spades.

It seems to me that defending 2♠ (undoubled) should score better.

[jdonn]

Huh, 3♣ by north isn't THAT much better than 3♣ by south. East is probably leading a red suit, and if the diamond was off it's not like west was usually going to lead the ace of diamonds anyway.

[JLOGIC]

Maybe I'm confused, but isn't 3C by south better than 3C by north? 3C by south has the hand with the spade void and red honors on lead.

[jdonn]

lol yes I said it wrong but I mean the same argument, I think the difference is small not 3 points.

[JLOGIC]

jdonn, on Sep 30 2010, 01:54 PM, said:

lol yes I said it wrong but I mean the same argument, I think the difference is small not 3 points.

I don't understand what you mean. Currently 3CN is rated has higher than 3CS. My point is not to argue the degree of that difference, just that I think 3CS>3CN