[gurgistan]

Partner opens 1c/1d.

You have no more than 5hcp. You may or may not have a four card major but have only 3 card support or worse for the bid suit.

As fair as I am aware you need 6hcp minimum and a four card suit to bid in order to respond positively.

The danger is partner has <15hcp and has a fourcard major.

Do we just pass as we do not have the requisite 6hcp to bid?

Or do we stretch and bid something to prevent partner from playing in a probable bad fit in a minor?

[aguahombre]

Forum posters always "do something". Pass is a four-letter word.

"I always thought the natural meaning of PASS was "I can't bid anything". (vuroth) 4-22-10

"It is not difficult for me to pass when I have no good bid to make." (Josh 7-23-10)

Those quotes are out of context, and standards for "can't bid anything", or "no good bid to make" are different from one person to the next.

When I respond, I expect to be in game if pard has 18. This is not a universal view.

[CSGibson]

I do not need 6 HCP to bid. An example:

Scoring: IMP

P-(P)-1♦-(1♥),
1♠-(3♥)-3♠-(p),
4♠ all pass

---

What you need is a hand that you think you will get a better result bidding than passing. Flat quacky hands will pass more frequently than either shapely hands or hands with a K or A.

[gwnn]

Don't pass with an Ace; also don't pass with 5. Try not to pass if you have a 5 card major. Otherwise, pass away.

[gurgistan]

gwnn, on Sep 26 2010, 02:28 PM, said:

Don't pass with an Ace; also don't pass with 5. Try not to pass if you have a 5 card major. Otherwise, pass away.

Scoring: IMP

Partner is 2nd seat opener and bids 1♣. West passes. Well, I have a five card major so I bid 1♠. East bids 2♦. Partner Xs. West passes. I bid 2♠. East passes. Partner bids 3♦. West Xs. I pass because partner gets a chance to bid again. East passes. Partner bids 4♠.

Random Partner turns out to have a 21hcp hand with 3433 shape. (2N would have been much better opener.)

The opening lead which proved pivotal was the Q♦ by East. I play dummy's A♦ and West (Expert) in order to unblock the suit pitches his doubleton K♦. However, East had lead from ♦QJ762. West thinking it was ♦QJTxx played the hand accordingly and thus gave me an easier line to take but I made as once the K♦ pitch had been made I was guaranteed a further winner in ♦s. I came joint top for 8.60 imps with two others.

All the Souths ended up as declarers. There were five 4♠s, three 3Ns, five 3♠s and 3 2Ns.

Passing 1♣ here would have been a huge disaster.

Questions:
1. How bad was my bidding?

2. The opening lead was incorrect was it not?

---

[manudude03]

Your bidding was fine. You know the lead isn't from QJTxx though, you have the T.

Edit: removed, thought partner X'ed 3♦

[junyi_zhu]

gurgistan, on Sep 26 2010, 06:55 PM, said:

Partner opens 1c/1d.

You have no more than 5hcp. You may or may not have a four card major but have only 3 card support or worse for the bid suit.

As fair as I am aware you need 6hcp minimum and a four card suit to bid in order to respond positively.

The danger is partner has <15hcp and has a fourcard major.

Do we just pass as we do not have the requisite 6hcp to bid?

Or do we stretch and bid something to prevent partner from playing in a probable bad fit in a minor?

It really depends on your overall opening style. If you open 2C with rather light values and open 1 level with also some rather light values, you can actually pass with many weaker hands. The odds for you to find a magical fit in a game isn't very high, and even if you pass, you still might find it by opp's help. Of course most forum posters play a very different style, so they would say you should respond with any 5 card suit or with one ace, which isn't my cup of tea at all. Another important consideration is that can you improve the contract? With stiff or void in C, you certainly want to improve your contract when red, because the auction may die out and you may find youself playing a 3-1, 4-0 fit in clubs. Although I generally respond sounder than most here, I still don't think bidding 1S with xxxxxxx xxx xxx - over partner's 1C when red is a sin.

[Siegmund]

Different people have different standards for subminimum responses.

On this forum you'll hear from a large number of people who respond on all sorts of weak hands including yours.

My style, however, is to only respond on 5 with a compelling reason and a plan for the next round of the auction. Both majors is a great reason, especially if I can respond 1H now. I can't remember ever responding at the 1-level with 4 or less and no fit; I do play WJS over minors, and once in a while I have WJSed into a very chunky 5-card suit like KJT9x.

Several ways to improve the contract is what you are looking for. Shortness in opener's minor, in and of itself, is not a plus. You do NOT want to hear partner rebid 2m or 3m, and aren't necessarily pleased to hear 2NT.

Opposite a 1D opening, I would be more understanding of 1H on xx Axxx xxxx xxx, than on xx Axxx xx xxxxx. On both hands, we'd love to find a 4-4 heart fit; but on the latter hand a 1S rebid is a disaster and a noturmp contract is likely on the rocks, while the former can retreat to diamonds if a heart fit isn't found.

[nigel_k]

You don't need 6 HCP to respond, 5 is a normal response. I would only pass with 5 if 4333 or 4432 and no major or a very bad major suit. Many 4 HCP hands should respond. Honour location is important as well.

[rbforster]

Remember that "the worst that can happen" is not that the opponents get involved. It's that partner jumps to 2N and now you're way too high with no fit.

[hrothgar]

Rob F, on Sep 29 2010, 07:54 PM, said:

Remember that "the worst that can happen" is not that the opponents get involved. It's that partner jumps to 2N and now you're way too high with no fit.

Or doubles them at the two level expecting that you have some values...

[655321]

hrothgar, on Sep 29 2010, 12:02 PM, said:

Rob F, on Sep 29 2010, 07:54 PM, said:

Remember that "the worst that can happen" is not that the opponents get involved.  It's that partner jumps to 2N and now you're way too high with no fit.

Or doubles them at the two level expecting that you have some values...

Sounds like nonsense to me, what is this auction where partner (a) wants to make a penalty double at the 2 level after a simple response, and (b) has a penalty double available?


Anyway, needing 6 points to respond is a good general rule for balanced hands, although there are times you might bid with less. But with unbalanced hands, you can bid on less, with 5 spades and a singleton you often want to respond 1♠ instead of passing. But the motivation for bidding is not the negative 'to take partner out of 1m', it is a combination of positive reasons such looking for a good fit (with a big fit and some shape, you can take a lot of tricks without many points), making it harder for the opponents to enter the auction, etc.

[hrothgar]

655321, on Sep 30 2010, 01:19 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Sep 29 2010, 12:02 PM, said:

Rob F, on Sep 29 2010, 07:54 PM, said:

Remember that "the worst that can happen" is not that the opponents get involved.  It's that partner jumps to 2N and now you're way too high with no fit.

Or doubles them at the two level expecting that you have some values...

Sounds like nonsense to me, what is this auction where partner (a) wants to make a penalty double at the 2 level after a simple response, and ( has a penalty double available?

1m - (P) - 1M - (1N)
X

[655321]

That is the one level, not the two level, and consequently responder (because if he has responded very light he should be unbalanced) usually has a rebid, and by ripping this double responder lets opener (with a strong hand) know most of his hand.

I am claiming that even if it is possible for partner to unilaterally double something at the two level (and after a 1M response to 1m I don't think it is) it is so unlikely that in practice it is not a concern, I don't remember it ever happening. Whereas Rob's point is valid, sometimes partner does jump to 2NT and we get a bad result.