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pass with this defensive raise?

#1 User is offline   DJNeill 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 09:17

Hi all,

MP None Vul.

Q985
J93
AJ9
J52

RHO 1st seat opens 1D. LHO bids 1S. Partner bids 2H. RHO bids 2S.

Here you play that
2N shows a limit raise of hearts (loosely defined)
3C is natural
3D is undiscussed
3H is just competitive
X is undiscussed

Do you raise to 3H? or bid 2N? or Pass? or Double?

Thanks,
Dan
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#2 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 09:28

First, redefine 3 as fit non jump. It is impossible you could decide to bid clubs now having passed over 1 without a heart fit. And if you have good clubs and modest heart support where a natural 3 might make sense, you could use snap dragon dbl. Of course, your hand is not suitable for 3 bid as fit non-jump or anything else.

I would save 2NT for a hand with four trumps, so that bid is out.

I would define double here as snapdragon (good clubs tolerence for hearts), and so that is out as well.

I would define 3 as a mixed raise. After partners "brave" sandwich 2 bid, I like my heart suit, I like the locaction and size of my diamond cards (even the nine very likley is working). Three card support here is good enough for the 3 bid. But sadly, while I would like to bid 3 to show this hand... mixed raise with defensive values, the hand just isn't quite strong enough for this bid. Change the club J to King I would bid 3, probably if it was the Queen instead of the jack too, and if feeling frisky if I had CLUB JTx instead of Jxx..

So the option is pass and 3. On this hand, I would raise to 3 based on lott.. I fully expect they have an 8 card spade fit and we have a 9 card heart fit. I hope they don't double... and I hope to get a shot at 3 or 4 .

Ben
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#3 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 09:45

DJNeill, on Aug 12 2004, 06:17 PM, said:

Hi all,

MP None Vul.

Q985
J93
AJ9
J52

RHO 1st seat opens 1D. LHO bids 1S. Partner bids 2H. RHO bids 2S.

Here you play that
2N shows a limit raise of hearts (loosely defined)
3C is natural
3D is undiscussed
3H is just competitive
X is undiscussed

Do you raise to 3H? or bid 2N? or Pass? or Double?

Thanks,
Dan

I don't care what the Law says, I'm passing.

I have a defensively oriented hand: 4333 shape and slow tricks suggest defending rather than pushing us to the three level. Maybe I'm getting conservative in my old age, but I'm too worried about -300...
Alderaan delenda est
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#4 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 09:59

hrothgar, on Aug 12 2004, 11:45 AM, said:

DJNeill, on Aug 12 2004, 06:17 PM, said:

Hi all,

MP None Vul.

Q985
J93
AJ9
J52

RHO 1st seat opens 1D.  LHO bids 1S.  Partner bids 2H.  RHO bids 2S.

Here you play that
2N shows a limit raise of hearts (loosely defined)
3C is natural
3D is undiscussed
3H is just competitive
X is undiscussed

Do you raise to 3H? or bid 2N? or Pass? or Double?

Thanks,
Dan

I don't care what the Law says, I'm passing.

I have a defensively oriented hand: 4333 shape and slow tricks suggest defending rather than pushing us to the three level. Maybe I'm getting conservative in my old age, but I'm too worried about -300...

Well I am worried about -300 and if I pass, I am worried about the +420 we could have gotten if I had bid. You pay your entry fee, you take your chances.

Ben
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#5 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 10:11

There's not hurry to bid on this hand. Pard is short in spades, so, if he has extras, he'll reopen 2S with a double, after which you can support him. Meanwhile, if opps bid to 3 or 4S, that suits you just fine.
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#6 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 10:20

Clearcut pass, and if p doubles or so, you can still support or use some other bid.
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#7 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 11:23

DJNeill, on Aug 12 2004, 07:17 AM, said:

Hi all,

MP None Vul.

Q985
J93
AJ9
J52

RHO 1st seat opens 1D. LHO bids 1S. Partner bids 2H. RHO bids 2S.

Here you play that
2N shows a limit raise of hearts (loosely defined)
3C is natural
3D is undiscussed
3H is just competitive
X is undiscussed

Do you raise to 3H? or bid 2N? or Pass? or Double?

Thanks,
Dan

I'm passing. My ODR is below bad; further, the total tricks are reduced by one due to my 4333. 7 of 9 points in their suits, and a 9 and a 98.

I think the bigger question is whether or not you pull pard's reopening dbl with this. I'm sticking to my guns and passing twice. If pard has real offense, he can reopen with 2N to show a good 6-4. A reopening dbl should be more like 1-5-3-4. I love the idea of defending with the majority of the deck in this case.
"Phil" on BBO
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#8 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 12:49

first of all, 2nt is out for me... an overcall against 2 bidding ops?... i'm bidding 3h based on 2 things... my diamonds are pulling their weight, and partner is *very* short in spades...

partner's bid is probably based on good hearts, good clubs, short spades.. i have good cover for diamonds... i'd prefer to have a 4th heart, but i don't... if they bid 3S, i have to go into a huddle (just kidding, i'd pass fairly quickly - partner's bid is probably based on good distribution and not a whole lot of defense)
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#9 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 12:58

Hmmm.. the passers seem confident partner will reopen. I think this is not so clear. Partner is short in spades, but he already stuck his neck out with the sandwich 2H bid, and he knows you don't have too much as you didn't bid one 1 so there is no way he is thinking you are trapping over 2. If you pass 2 we all KNOW you will be defending 2. Even if you beat it, which isn't a guarantee, you are likely not to score too well. This is matchpoints after all, +50 isn't going to be a great score.

Think about what hand your parnter will bid 2 with on this auction. I bet 6 or more is almost a requirement. Average number might be 6.3 hearts or so.

Let't "imagine" some situations. On defense and offense, we can imagine 2 diamnd tricks from our hand. It is hard to imagine a spade trick (partner could have singleton king I guess), in hearts, partner with the expect six, we have at most two. So we have, like 2, 0/1/2 , 0/1. So the real issue here is clubs.

If we have two tricks on defense, we will win 6 and 2 in our contract. So if we can score a single club we make. If we can't get a club, they can make. So bidding 3 seems to be +140 or -50 avoiding -110. If we can win only 1 trick on defense, we need two clubs or a club and a spade to defeat them. But is we have two black suit winners and two diamnod winners, then 5 will see us to 9 tricks.

So while I agree that bidding 3 risk -300, I think passing at matchpoint risk a much more frequent bad score. And the advantage of 3 is it is likely to goad them into bidding more.

Ben
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#10 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 13:45

inquiry, on Aug 12 2004, 01:58 PM, said:

Think about what hand your parnter will bid 2 with on this auction. I bet 6 or more is almost a requirement. Average number might be 6.3 hearts or so.

Wow, you must not play with my partners very often. B)

2 from my partners tend to show one of two hands:

-A hand with six hearts and not many points (6-10), interfering because he wants to compete to the three level with a fit. This hand could have opened 2.

-A hand with points (12-15) and 5-6 hearts, without four clubs. This hand could have opened 1.

Not vulnerable, I would be shocked if he had seven hearts- that's worth an immediate jump to the three level.

3 hearts doesn't scare me...if I go for more than 100 I'd be surprised. But I see two very substantial risks. One is that by bidding, I'll help them find game if my partner has the weak-with-hearts hand. If one of them has four small hearts, for example, they'll realize that it's only one loser and feel more confident about bidding on. The other is that my partner, with his long hearts and short spades, will believe that I bid 3 with shortness in a minor, and bid 4 when we're not even close, either as a sacrifice over 3 or to make.

I don't believe, based on the bidding so far, that we have game. But I don't know if they have game- they might. So I don't want to do anything that will help them make that decision.

I pass.
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#11 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 13:52

jtfanclub.. remind me not to play with your parnters...

Not vul, my partners bid 3 on most weak hands with hearts, be it 5 or 6, with seven and weak they bid 4. 2 here on yuck has very little going for it. IT even allows a support double versus a normal raise, a luxtury not allowed with a 3 bid.

My partners have VALUES for this 2 bid.. and so do I. After all, it is not likely to be a good "lead directoring" bid when partner is short is spades and partner is weak. I didn't have enough to overcall so they likelywill play the hand, and after the one guy bids spades, partner is very likely on lead.

As for overcalling in hearts on very meger values.. (your 6-10 pts), I fully encourage this if it can happen at the one level and if only one opponent has bid... to come into the sandwich position at the two level with such hands is not good bridge, not even average bridge.

Ben
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#12 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 17:45

It seems to me that this hand should be a clear example of "adjustments to the law":

- our length in spades suggest they will have only 8 trumps
- 4333 shape is a minus
- wasted SQ is a minus
- quacks honors also are a minus

It seems to me that these elemnts tend to suggest this is one of those hands where there are less tricks than trumps, but I am not Larry Cohen .... B)

-----------------

As for what I'd bid, I'd be torn between pass and a slightly offshape responsive double to show my values (if p bids clubs I correct to 3H).
IMO a direct raise in H could encourage partner to bid (4H to make or sacrifice) too much, because he is likely to be short in opps suit and get excited.
Double gives values denying a good fit, which is what I think of this hand; I much rather give a 2nd round preference to H.
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#13 User is offline   paulhar 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 18:34

Partner already stuck his neck out to bid 2H and may not feel like it's his job to bid again. I support with support. My spades may take a trick and be a nuisance on defense, but opponents frequently bid 3S in these situations. In any event, the only card I expect to be useless in hearts is the SQ.

I suspect about 16 total tricks which means I should be bidding - with none vul, it should be -50 instead of -110 or +140 instead of +50. If partner bids 4H, the placement of the diamonds may be enough to make it.
I tend to lead fourth best - as opposed to the best suit, the second best suit, or the third best suit for our side
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#14 User is offline   Antoine Fourrière 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 18:55

If partner has only five hearts, he has an opening bid (unless he is five-five). Since with 1=5=3=4 or 1=5=4=3 and an opening bid he should double (hearts become a minor when the opponents have spades), he has real pattern, either a six-bagger or a five-five.
Ergo 3, and pass over 3.
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#15 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 20:04

Quote from an acquaintance who commented on this hand -

"Of course it's correct to downgrade the hand, but to not raise with 3 hearts to the jack and a side ace is like slapping partner in the face, and saying I don't care about you and your hand - I make the decisions for this partnership."

Fwiw I agree, 3H is pretty clear cut.
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#16 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 22:22

inquiry, on Aug 12 2004, 02:52 PM, said:

Not vul, my partners bid 3 on most weak hands with hearts, be it 5 or 6, with seven and weak they bid 4.

I'm sure your partners are right, and mine are wrong. Even so, I understand where mine are coming from. The opponents haven't found a fit at the point that he's bidding: 3 with six and 6-10 HCP could be very, very wrong. Like, we go for -300 when they struggle to make 90. There's no reason to think that opener doesn't have four hearts. Sure, once the 2 bid is made you know you were safe to bid 3, but it's a little late to go back and change your bid.

Let's say you have....
xx
KTxxxx
Txx
Kx

Bidding has gone 1 P 1 to you.

What would you bid?
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#17 User is offline   bearmum 

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Posted 2004-August-13, 03:26

DJNeill, on Aug 13 2004, 04:17 AM, said:

Hi all,

MP None Vul.

Q985
J93
AJ9
J52

RHO 1st seat opens 1D.  LHO bids 1S.  Partner bids 2H.  RHO bids 2S.

Here you play that
2N shows a limit raise of hearts (loosely defined)
3C is natural
3D is undiscussed
3H is just competitive
X is undiscussed

Do you raise to 3H? or bid 2N? or Pass? or Double?

Thanks,
Dan

I'm ASSUMING that you have not played with partner a lot ( and MAYBE this is the FIRST time and the agreements you have noted is all that has managed to be discussed) :lol:

I will bid 3 - "just competetive" --- SURERLY partner will NOT bid on with a weakish hand?? --- and IF he/she does and goes for a BIG number -- put him/her on your "Prefer never to play with again " list :lol: ( as obviously is a partner that you have just met :lol: )
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#18 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-August-13, 09:53

Support with support.
But nomore then 3, that's all my hand is worth. It does help that I tend to play with pd's who don't overcall on crap.
Am sure that there will be many passers out there, who are used to playing with pds that will overcall on about anything.

Mike :lol:
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be ideas, and hard thought, and hard work.”
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#19 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2004-August-13, 15:59

Trpltrbl, on Aug 13 2004, 03:53 PM, said:

Support with support.

I was taught by mentors on BBO that with 4333 you consider ur support shorter by one card because of no ruffing power.
If that holds true, it means that in the given hand it should be counted 2 card support.
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Posted 2004-August-13, 16:31

Chamaco, on Aug 13 2004, 05:59 PM, said:

Trpltrbl, on Aug 13 2004, 03:53 PM, said:

Support with support.

I was taught by mentors on BBO that with 4333 you consider ur support shorter by one card because of no ruffing power.
If that holds true, it means that in the given hand it should be counted 2 card support.

Hi...

I think all rules are made to be overlooked. Do this. Start imaginig normal hands for this auction. Give your partner five good hearts, or six average hearts and roughly an opening hand. Assume EAST opened his better minor and they have an eight or nine card spade fit, with EAST (your RHO) having four spades.

Now, think about honor placement. Who has the diamond cards and how are your AJ9 located. If your parner has club honors (and with little in diamonds (maybe one honor) and less in spades, he rates to have at least one club honor.

Now figure out what they can make, normally, and what you can make normally. If you can BEAT them in 2, where are your tricks?

One at most is spades, two at most in hearts (one of them surely has a doubleon), ok likely two in diamonds. That is five tricks. You will still need a club if you get a spade, and two clubs if you can't. And this down one earns you 50 points.

Let's look at the situation where, you win two clubs and no spades to beat them one. You can expect to win the same two clubs in hearts, and the same two diamonds in hearts. That is already four tricks. IF you can win five hearts (partner has six card suit or AKQ fifth, or AQT fifth with hook on), you could be +140. The odds favor your partner having a six card suit here.

And if you can't beat 2SP.. say you win no spade and only one club? So you win 2H, 2D and 1C so they make? In 3H, you still win 2D, 1C, and your hoped for 5H for down one, and if you can win 6H, you can even make 3H while they make 2S.

I think if you play with the hands, you will find the right bid here is 3H (if partner knows this is not a game try of course--- you got to thave that agreement). Part of the reason is this bid works in not that you have any side ace, it is the diamond ACE combined with J9 behind the natural diamond bidder. Odds are you will score two diamond tricks (offense or defense). Partner didn't DOUBLE 1, didn't bid a takeout sandwich 1NT, or cue-bid.. and yet we KNOW (not guess) that partner is short in spades. So partner rates to have some diamond legnth or EXTRA long heart legnth... both of which FAVOR your bidding.

So are your mentors right that 3 card support is not great? Yes. Is 4333 shape a negative? You betcha. Does having Q-fourth in their suit suggest defending instead of bidding? Without a doubt. But BRIDGE LOGIC, honor placement, and type of game makes biddign 3H here 100% clear choice. This is one reason why bridge is so facinating.

Hope that helps give you something to think about even if in the long run you disagree with me.

Ben
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