[hrothgar]

straube, on Sep 23 2010, 01:31 AM, said:

I like the ability to reverse relay and had never really thought of them as relay breaks, but maybe they are.

I was just trying to point out an advantage I thought I saw in Abraham's method over Moscito and I didn't mean to offend you.

I'd never really liked Moscito's 1C-1D, 1N because it used up so much room. I'd thought to try to preserve 2D+ continuations so that responder could even then pattern out some of his hands, but he can show far less than after 1C-1D, 1H.

After 1C-1D, 1H-1N then I don't understand which of opener's hands he would want to show. If opener had a minimum balanced hand, wouldn't have have rebid 1N immediately? 1C-1D, 1N?

If I remember Moscito correctly, opener can't show the 3-suited hands and has to bid 1C-1D, 1H. If now 1C-1D, 1H-1N and responder is showing a balanced hand, then perhaps

2C-relays
other-5440s

The relay break after 1♣ - 1♦ normally shows a minimum hand, however there's a very significant advantage to having balanced hands ask, so a large percentage of balanced minimums will choose to ask rather than show. (If the auction starts 1♣ - 1♦, if I have a balanced hand and relay break to 1NT I pretty much have a 15 count or a godawful 16 count)

There are still plenty of minimum hands to show after

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 1N

[straube]

Fair enough. When I played Moscito I strained not to rebid 1N...to the point that that rebid was almost but not quite wasted.

[Free]

Richard, I think you missed something. Normally 1♣-1♦-1♥ shows extra's. With a balanced minimum, opener will immediately bid 1NT himself limiting his strength to 9-11 QP's. After that, responder can ask, or can show if he also holds a balanced hand.

So basically this case is more applicable:
1♣ - 1♦
1NT - ?
2♣ = relay
2♦+ = min, balanced, showing shape (reversing relays again)

After 1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT opener will rarely reverse relays since he already showed extra's with 1♥, but it's still possible. You could agree he has exactly 12 QP's for example (which saves space later on, no need to ask for QP's and having 4 suits to scan).

[straube]

He hasn't missed anything. He consciously avoids the sequence 1C-1D, 1N unless he has a 15 or bad 16 because it prevents him from being captain when responder has a shapely hand. I've done similarly.

Btw, if one doesn't care for 1C-1D, 1N to show a balanced minimum, it can instead show a 2-suiter and a 1-suiter...like both majors or one of the minors.

[hrothgar]

straube, on Sep 23 2010, 04:07 PM, said:

Btw, if one doesn't care for 1C-1D, 1N to show a balanced minimum, it can instead show a 2-suiter and a 1-suiter...like both majors or one of the minors.

The 1NT response shows EITHER a balanced hand or a 4441.

With this said and done, reordering the relay sequences such that 1N shows a two suiter + a one suiter completely destroys the symmetry of the structure.

Right now, after

1♣ - 1♦
1♥

Bids from 2♣ up show a set of single suited / two suited hands.
A 1♠ response shows a different set of single suited / two suited hand patterns.

After

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 1♠
1N - 2♣+

We're able to use precisely the same relay structure that we use after

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 2♣+

Your scheme would shift everything down a step which significantly increases the complexity of the resulting structure.

[akhare]

straube, on Sep 23 2010, 08:07 AM, said:

Btw, if one doesn't care for 1C-1D, 1N to show a balanced minimum, it can instead show a 2-suiter and a 1-suiter...like both majors or one of the minors.

Seems like to converge on 2H = SS, 2S+ = reverser, you would have to put two 2-suiters and a 1-suiter, so for example:

1C - 1D - 1N - 2C:

2D: S+D
2H: S
2S+: S+C

[straube]

The suggestion I gave would put those hands at +0 which is not symmetric with the rest of Moscito (which I believe is +1). As Atul suggested, at +1 we could fit even more hand patterns into the 1N rebid.

My point was not so much to suggest a particular use for 1C-1D, 1N but to suggest that if one is reluctant or sparing with the use of a 1N rebid to show a balanced (or 4441) hand, that 1N might be reassigned to show other patterns.