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sound raise or mixed raise? competitive bidding

#1 User is offline   raist 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 12:44

KTxx QTxx xx Axx

all red bidding goes

(1D)-1S-(dbl)

what do you bid with this?
do you show a sound raise (by cuebidding diamonds or bidding 2H as a transfer whichever your method is) or a mixed raise (whichever your method is)?
why?

3S right away is pre emptive so that's out

and how high do you intend to compete if partner passes hereafter?
3S?
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#2 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 12:47

There's a bid in the literature for this: 3, mixed raise. Shows 4 trumps and a 6-9 hand with mild defensive values. Right about what you have.

Another common gadget is 2NT, showing an invite or better hand with 4 trumps. You could also stretch this elegant hand to 2NT.

Lacking any of those gadgets, I guess I'd cue + go all the way to 3, on my own if necessary.
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#3 User is offline   raist 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 13:42

yes i know the hand is between either a sound raise or a mixed raise immediately to the 3 level

what i'm interested in is with such a hand, which is the more descriptive bid?

probably not all hands with 4 trumps and 6-9 hcp is worth a direct raise to the 3 level
(unless you are a strict adherent of the Law)
sometimes it may be better to make a sound raise first. and then compete further

a mixed raise may be more appropriate on more offensive hands whereas this hand is a good all-round hand, even on defence
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#4 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 13:59

I prefer some shape in a mixed raise. This is a good single raise of an overcall, a combo of both offense and defense, I cuebid to show it.
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#5 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 14:05

raist, on Sep 19 2010, 08:42 PM, said:

probably not all hands with 4 trumps and 6-9 hcp is worth a direct raise to the 3 level (unless you are a strict adherent of the Law)
sometimes it may be better to make a sound raise first. and then compete further

I'd go along with this. While I am happy to go to 3 in competition, at red on this hand I am happy to play in 2 if I can. So for me, a good 3 card raise, 2 transfer to spades. (2NT would be an invitational 3 card raise, and 2 a preemptive 3 card raise.)

I will certainly bid 3 over 3.
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#6 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 14:13

Definitely too good for a mixed raise, it's easily a limit raise however you show one here.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#7 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 14:18

Mixed raise for me. I like my invites to be better than this, especially opposite an overcall.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#8 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 14:45

hanp, on Sep 19 2010, 03:18 PM, said:

Mixed raise for me. I like my invites to be better than this, especially opposite an overcall.

That's when I really think you should be allowed to make limit raises lighter. It has a good effect on the opponents when you sound strong, and for many people you can make a cuebid and not go beyond the 2 level anyway.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#9 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 14:46

Maybe you should play that 2NT is preemptive, in the hope that they don't ask and are impressed by the values you've shown.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#10 User is offline   cherdanno 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 15:23

jdonn, on Sep 19 2010, 03:45 PM, said:

hanp, on Sep 19 2010, 03:18 PM, said:

Mixed raise for me. I like my invites to be better than this, especially opposite an overcall.

That's when I really think you should be allowed to make limit raises lighter. It has a good effect on the opponents when you sound strong, and for many people you can make a cuebid and not go beyond the 2 level anyway.

And I thought it's a disadvantage rather than an advantage that the 2D limit raise doesn't take up room with this hand.
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#11 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 17:06

4 card mixed raise for me. I don't like to make a simple cue raise with this sort of hand when knowing about the 4th trump makes such a difference to partner's evaluation.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#12 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 17:12

655321, on Sep 19 2010, 06:06 PM, said:

4 card mixed raise for me.  I don't like to make a simple cue raise with this sort of hand when knowing about the 4th trump makes such a difference to partner's evaluation.

What if you played 2N showed a 4 card limit raise? I think this should be pretty standard since you would XX with a natural 2N bid (if such a thing as a natural 2N bid exists here).

I agree with jdonn that it's too good for a mixed raise, and I agree with 655321 that we would like to show our 4th trump immediately and I agree with cherdano that we'd also like to preempt them a bit. Seems like using 2N which is useless as a natural bid lets us show our values while also preempting/showing our 4th trump at the same time.
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#13 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 17:37

JLOGIC, on Sep 19 2010, 06:12 PM, said:

What if you played 2N showed a 4 card limit raise?

I could easily be sold on a limit raise instead of mixed raise. I guess it partly depends how strong a preemptive 3 can be. If a preemptive raise is less than 6 points then this hand does look too strong for a mixed raise, if a preemptive raise can be up to 6 or 7 when we are vulnerable then I don't mind the mixed raise.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#14 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 18:05

655321, on Sep 19 2010, 05:37 PM, said:

I could easily be sold on a limit raise instead of mixed raise.

So close. Switching the major suit honors around would make it a LR instead of a mixed IMO. Or maybe the same hand, but a pass by RHO instead of showing his hearts and a bit of strength would do it.
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#15 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 19:37

Mixed for me.

In a vacuum it's close to being good enough for a limit raise (though, to be honest, its the tiniest bit short of what I want to have for a limit raise of an opening); but QTxx behind the negative doubler says "defend" to me, so I am going out of my way to avoid over-exciting partner.
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#16 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-September-20, 00:40

What do people think about using 2NT, 3D, 3H and 3S all for 4-card raises, the lower the better? Is this overkill?
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#17 User is offline   mich-b 

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Posted 2010-September-20, 01:32

Mixed raised for me , partly because he has room to invite by bidding 3 , and then I can accept. If the mixed raised happened to be just below our suit , I would be more likely to show this as invite.
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#18 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2010-September-20, 09:04

hanp, on Sep 20 2010, 12:40 AM, said:

What do people think about using 2NT, 3D, 3H and 3S all for 4-card raises, the lower the better? Is this overkill?

The Bergen people are used to it without competition :(

Even though I think Bergen raises of opening bids replace too many things, on THIS auction (advancing an overcall after a neg double), it is o.k. And you also have three 3-card raises.
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#19 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-September-21, 02:49

My choice is mixed raise. I don't have anything to really upgrade my hand to an invite.

Note however, that my invite would show 4+ (bidding 2NT). 2 only shows a 3 card support. If you don't have the possibility to show the difference between 3 or 4 card invite, then I might be more convinced an invite is right.
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#20 User is offline   raist 

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Posted 2010-September-21, 03:42

hanp, on Sep 20 2010, 01:40 AM, said:

What do people think about using 2NT, 3D, 3H and 3S all for 4-card raises, the lower the better? Is this overkill?

i use all jump shifts as FIT JUMPS
EXCEPT when it is a jump shift to 3M-1, then it is a mixed raise (giving up the fit jump for that particular bid)

i was sold on fit jumps by the people who wrote "partnership bidding at bridge"
although it seldom comes up
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