[benlessard]

lets say

1H--1S (relay)
2H (5/6H+4S 12-14)--???

2NT is GF relay
What use would you take for the others bids and what suits requirement for 3m ?

[PrecisionL]

I use suits playable opposite a small doubleton to break the relay:

AQJxxx KQJxxx

Use 3♠ as Beta and 3♥ as shortage ask.

[hrothgar]

You are asking us to recommend a set of relay breaks for a very specific bid.
This is a stupid question.

No one in their right mind would design unique set of relay breaks for a single isolated bid. Yes, you MIGHT be able to design a very efficient set of responses, but there is no way any would every be able to remember 1,001 different set of unique relay breaks.

You need to start grouping bids into common classes and then designing structures that will work for reasonably well for that entire class.

[benlessard]

Quote

You are asking us to recommend a set of relay breaks for a very specific bid.
This is a stupid question.

By putting let say in front of my example i meant that its in case out of many.

The range in some of our auction is well defined. But I dont care what is the point range or what is the 2suits or single suit. I just want to get a general idea if your relay break tend to show singleton in main suit/ ask for stopper in unbid suit/show a very good suit that partner can raise with a stiff H

[jdonn]

What hands start with 1♠ as opposed to something else?

[hrothgar]

benlessard, on Sep 11 2010, 01:09 AM, said:

Quote

You are asking us to recommend a set of relay breaks for a very specific bid.
This is a stupid question.

By putting let say in front of my example i meant that its in case out of many.

The range in some of our auction is well defined. But I dont care what is the point range or what is the 2suits or single suit. I just want to get a general idea if your relay break tend to show singleton in main suit/ ask for stopper in unbid suit/show a very good suit that partner can raise with a stiff H

Here's the thing...

When I am playing a "real" relay system in a serious partnership, the definition of the relay break can take all sorts of meanings.

Consider the following examples

1♣ - 1♦
2♣

1♣ = Strong, artificial and forcing
1♦ = Game force
2♣ = Single suited with Clubs or Two suited with clubs and spades

At this point in time, 2♦ is relay, asking for shape
Relay breaks deny interest in slam and established a reverse relay showing shortage in partner's known suit (clubs). Further relay breaks are used to ask for / show stoppers.


1♣ - 1♦
1N - 2♣
2N

1♣ = Strong, artificial and forcing
1♦ = Game force
1N = balanced or 4441
2♣ = relay
2N = 5332 / 4333 with primary Diamonds

At this point in time, 3♣ is relay, asking for shape
Relay breaks deny interest in slam and show stoppers

1♣ - 1♦
2♦

1♣ = Strong, artificial and forcing
1♦ = Game force
2♦ = Two suited with Diamonds and Spades

Here's 2♥ = relay
Relay breaks tend to deny slam interest and show a two suited with Hearts and Clubs. Further relay breaks are used to ask for / show stoppers.

1♣ - 1♦
1N

1♣ = Strong, artificial and forcing
1♦ = Game force
1N = balanced or 4441

2♣ is a relay.
Relay breaks are a reverse relay which deny strength for slam and show a balanced / 4441 hand using the same relay scheme.

Is that a good start?

(To the extent that there is a common theme, relay breaks tend to limit strength, deny interest in slam, and encourage a transition to more natural bidding to intelligently probe for 3N)

[benlessard]

Quote

What hands start with 1♠ as opposed to something else?

Hands with fits are not a problems. Many of our side suit bid are not forcing. Relaying and bidding a new suit is GF. Opener rarely has ambiguous bids like Moscito and we dont relay balanced hand (wich is simply ridiculous), so after he make 2 "naturals bids" a further relay ask for final shape and a relay break show a misfit and ??? Also our range is narrow so after shape showing we dont need AKQ pts.

Example

1D--1H
1Nt(6D any strenght) or D+H 12-14) --2C
2D (showing 6D 12-14)---???

here 2H is GF asking for shortness/balanced
2S/3C would be natural GF

here i think the suit requirement to break the relay should be very high because relaying is fairly economical.

so here AJ9xxx is not good enough in my book.
-------------------------------------------------------------
1C---1D (strong --waiting)
1S---1NT (5S----relay)
2D (5+S/4+H) 15-17 or 22+GF---???

2H/2S would be pref
2NT GF relay

if you have

Ax
xx
xxx
AQxxxx

and decided to relay partner might show a 5521 and you will be on a guess. If you bid clubs natural GF should partner bid 3NT with a D stop or repeat his S to show 6 ?

After a 3C relay break, my view is that opener would bid something like...

3D half a stop/unclear hand
3H 55
3S 64 or 5S solid
3NT D stop
4C keyc clubs at least xx or stiff H+ hand rich in control
4D club raise soft values.
4H near solid 5H
4S near solid 6S

On a side note i think a raise in partner 2nd suit when is range is narrow should be an invite with shortness in his main suit. With KQxxx/Axxx/???? he pass with Axxxx/KQxx/???? he bid game do you agree ?

[hrothgar]

Thinking about this a bit more:

Low level relay breaks tend to limit strength

Propotypical examples:

1♣ - 1♦
1♥+

1♦ - 1♦
1♥ - 1N
2♦+

Medium level relay breaks show a misfit

1♣ - 1♦
2♣ - 2♥+

1♣ - 1♦
2♦ - 2♠+

High level relay breaks are exploring 3NT

1♣ - 1♦
2♥ - 2N
3♦+

[jdonn]

benlessard, on Sep 11 2010, 06:55 AM, said:

Quote

What hands start with 1♠ as opposed to something else?

*stuff*

So what's the answer? You wrote a long post and I still have no idea which hands bid 1♠. Obviously your original question can't be answered without knowing that.

[awm]

Sort of off-topic, but I've noticed on a number of posts to these forums that Benlessard seems to have a very interesting and non-mainstream system involving a lot of relays and split-range bids.

It's a bit disappointing that he and a partner aren't participating in the bidding contest we're currently holding on the forums, as I'd be curious how these methods would fare on some of the hands. Obviously some of the contest is about contested auctions and bidding judgment etc. (it's not purely a "battle of the systems") but we do have a lack of really exotic stuff as best I can tell.

Hopefully Benlessard will participate in a later round.

[benlessard]

options after 1H(unbalanced)

1S relay (tend to show xx in H or at least 3 cards in the 3 others suits so that if opener as a 2nd suit we can give a preferennce and be sure of a 7 cards fit)

1Nt 5S forcing
2C clubs 6-10 NF (could be 5c-5d)
2D 6D nf 6-10
2H 4-7 NF

rest is fit jumps and mini-splinter and void splinters.

Quote

It's a bit disappointing that he and a partner aren't participating in the bidding contest we're currently holding on the forums, as I'd be curious how these methods would fare on some of the hands. Obviously some of the contest is about contested auctions and bidding judgment etc. (it's not purely a "battle of the systems") but we do have a lack of really exotic stuff as best I can tell.

Hopefully Benlessard will participate in a later round.

Good idea. My most regular partner went back to France but Ive add up new players. In fact we could be 4 players for the BBO forum contest trying to play the same system, im changing some little things right now so it might screw us but ill ask them.

You might see us in bbo partnership bidding,

noodle
shaztaz
yyatazs (or close to it)
benlessard

[Zelandakh]

You need to tell us what 1S shows Ben. Presumably 3m here will be the equivalent in your system of 1H - 1N - 2H - 3m in a standard system, or if 1S was INV+ then it is the same shape but invitational. Since 2N established the GF you have to use relay breaks for all the hands that responded 1S but are not able to make a game force now.

Just seen last post where you describe some structure. So 1S is any hand without 5 spades or 3 hearts and not weak with a minor. Seems clear 3m should show 11-12 with a long minor and no major fit. If it does not then you appear to have no way of handling this hand type!