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redwood, voidwood and anyother wood will do after RKCB

#1 User is offline   sceptic 

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Posted 2004-August-11, 09:23

Hi I play RKCB, 1403, (bold statement) I am quite interested to know where I can read about redwood, voidwood and anyother variants, not to play them (JUST YET) just to understand the basic concept of what they are about and the rules for using them.

Anyone care to explain exclusion blackwood as well and any comments on your prefered method and reasoning behind your preference or dislike of any of these methods

explain in simple terms please (if that is possible, I have no idea how advanced a topic this is), as I do struggle with some of the advanced explanations some of you are more than capable of giving, when you talk about a subject quite new to me.
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2004-August-11, 09:31

The basic idea behind Redwood is quite simple.

Suppose that you play 4NT as RKCB over all 4 suits. Furthermore, you want to ask for Keycards to determine whether or not to bid a Club Slam. Unfortunately, if you bid 4NT, partner is very likely to responder with a bid >= 5 COMMITTING you to slam regardless of whether you have enough Keycards.

As an alternative, consider the following scheme:

If Clubs are set as trump, then 4 is RKCB for Clubs
If Diamonds are set as trump, then 4 is RKCB for Diamonds

In each case bidding a "Red" suit is used as Blackwood. Hence, you have "Redwood".

Redwood is great in theory, however, it comes up very rarely and many pairs often have problems remembering the rules associated with its usage.
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#3 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2004-August-11, 10:01

hrothgar, on Aug 11 2004, 07:31 AM, said:

The basic idea behind Redwood is quite simple.

Suppose that you play 4NT as RKCB over all 4 suits.  Furthermore, you want to ask for Keycards to determine whether or not to bid a Club Slam.  Unfortunately, if you bid 4NT, partner is very likely to responder with a bid >= 5 COMMITTING you to slam regardless of whether you have enough Keycards.

As an alternative, consider the following scheme:

If Clubs are set as trump, then 4 is RKCB for Clubs
If Diamonds are set as trump, then 4 is RKCB for Diamonds

In each case bidding a "Red" suit is used as Blackwood.  Hence, you have "Redwood".

Redwood is great in theory, however, it comes up very rarely and many pairs often have problems remembering the rules associated with its usage.

Believe it or not, in last night's duplicate, minorwood came up TWICE!

1st hand:

1N...2N
3...3N
4...4
6


1N = 14-16
2N= xsfr to diamonds
3N= Mild slam try
4= RKCB
4= 1/4

Alas, with a club lead, spades were 6-2 AND KQxx of diamonds were offside :unsure:

2nd Hand:
1N...2N
3...3N
4...4
6



Partner did not play optimally; playing for the ruffing heart finesse (down 1). Playing for Kx or K 3rd of hearts coupled with getting a count on the hand would have led to learning RHO has Q 4th of diamonds.
"Phil" on BBO
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#4 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2004-August-11, 11:55

hrothgar, on Aug 11 2004, 10:31 AM, said:

Redwood is great in theory, however, it comes up very rarely

Seems to me that you either play Blackwood or Redwood, or Minorwood. Whichever version you play comes up with equal frequency, yes?
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#5 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2004-August-11, 12:00

Exclusion Blackwood
An unnecessary jump to the five level is Exclusion Blackwood and asks for aces excluding the bid suit. Responses typically follow the same method as your normal RKCB.

This is the method I play. There are others, but at least my agreements are clear. As Richard pointed out earlier on Redwood, clear agreements are worth a lot in the slam zone.
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#6 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2004-August-11, 14:19

hrothgar, on Aug 12 2004, 03:31 AM, said:

Redwood is great in theory, however, it comes up very rarely

I do not agree with this.

I play kickback which is the same as "redwood" when clubs and diamonds have been agreed. It is much more frequent that you can use kickback than ordinary RKCB since you do not have the worry about going past your last making contract.
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#7 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2004-August-11, 14:21

1eyedjack, on Aug 12 2004, 05:55 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Aug 11 2004, 10:31 AM, said:

Redwood is great in theory, however, it comes up very rarely

Seems to me that you either play Blackwood or Redwood, or Minorwood. Whichever version you play comes up with equal frequency, yes?

No!!!

As I said above the variations are much more common than standard Blackwood or RKCB since you can use them at a safe level.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#8 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-August-11, 16:16

You forgot about Kickback :)

minorwood:
if you have agreed a minor suit fit, then 4m is RKC. This 4m bid however can be the first time the player supported the suit.

redwood:
similar as above, only 4m is normal and invitational, and the bid above is RKC. So with fit, 4 is RKC, with a fit, 4 is RKC. Both suits are red, so that's the explanation of the name.

kickback:
similar as redwood, but it's extended to the majors as well: with a fit, 4 is RKC, and with a fit, 4NT is RKC.

advantage of redwood and kickback: you always stay at the safety level (5-level suit contract), and you can ALWAYS ask about the trump Q. See what happens:
Suit RKC highest response
C [space] [space]4D [space] [space] [space] 5C
D [space] [space]4H [space] [space] [space] 5D
H [space] [space]4S [space] [space] [space] 5H
S [space] [space]4NT [space] [space] [space]5S

The problem is, that there might be confusion weither or not the suit is to play or RKC, since one of the players might have bid the suit in the previous auction.

lackwood/voidwood/exclusion blackwood:
this asks about Aces or KeyCards (whatever you prefer) outside a specified suit. Usually this suit is the bid suit. Like:
1 - 4
5
could be exclusion blackwood. You have to talk about this with partner when a certain bid is exclusion blackwood, otherwise you might get misunderstandings.

To all these Ace-asking methods you can use the same response scheme. Example:
step 1 = 1/4 keycards
step 2 = 0/3 keycards
step 3 = 2 keycards, no trump Q
step 4 = 2 keycards, with trump Q
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#9 User is offline   Dean 

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Posted 2004-August-11, 18:50

I think there is a difference between Lackwood and voidwood/exclusion blackwood.

Lackwood is used when you have two or more small cards in a suit and want to know if partner can control the suit for slam purposes. its more of an asking bid. Typically you might use it after a preempt e.g.
4 : 5
Where 5 is lackwood agreeing spades. Replies are
Return to trump suit = no control
6 trump suit = second round control (King or singleton)
With first round control e..g Ace or void give RKCB by steps e.g.
4 : 5
?

5 = no control
6 = King or singleton
5 = 1 or 4 key cards and total control of diamonds.
5N = 0 or 3 key cards and total control
6=2 key cards no queen and total control.
etc


As others have mentioned Voidwood/exlcusion blackwood is used when you have a void and want to know partners key cards outside that suit.


Then there is also Weakwood. Like RKCB but with different cut down responses and usefull when you know partner has a weak hand e.g. after a preempt
3 : 4NT
?
5 = at most the Queen of trums
5 Q + 1 Key card
5 = 2 key cards no queen
5 = 2 keay cards + queen
etc

In fact I use lackwood with weakwood responses.
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#10 User is offline   keylime 

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  Posted 2004-August-11, 21:30

Minorwood comes up so much more often in the notes because it's four of the agreed minor. Redwood can be a toughie because if you bid 4H en passant in a bidding sequence, then you better agree to be able to play 4H. Minorwood solves this difficulty.
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#11 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 04:27

Yeah, I usually play minorwood for the minors (d'uh) and kickback for the Majors :) This increases the possibilities in , and keeps slamtry in minors as easy as possible. I was tired of getting auctions like ("..." = any previoius bidding, and agreeing ):
... - 4NT
5 - ???
when I need Q for slam, or
... - 4NT
5 - 6
going down 1 because we missed 2 keycards.
Kickback solved these problems already a few times :)
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#12 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2004-August-12, 05:32

Two more situations for EKCB:

When you rebid the suit you splintered in.
1:3, any:4

When you splinter and then make another bid over your partner's sign-off. If you were going to bid RKCB anyway, why would you splinter first?
eg 1:4, 4:4NT

Obviously 1:4, 4:4NT or 1:4, 4:4, 4:4NT shouldn't be EKCB because you could have a decent hand, prepared to accept a 4 sign-off, that then wants slam opposite a hand that can make a positive bid.

Any thoughts on what 1:4, 4:5 should mean? It's got to be either 'I forgot 4N now would be EKCB until I splintered, tell me keycards' or 'I've still forgotten 4N is EKCB so I've bid 5 EKCB instead', I'm not sure which would win on terms of frequency :)
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#13 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2004-August-17, 17:56

5C should show a void, and say "really, all I need is a cue in a red suit for slam. Don't worry about potential wasted honours".
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