[bucky]

TylerE, on Sep 9 2010, 10:49 AM, said:

1D-1H
3D-3H
4H

Looks pretty normal. I think 3♦ by north is pretty much a wtp.

Yes, but 3H is NOT.

[bucky]

MFA, on Sep 9 2010, 11:38 AM, said:

It is reasonable to play 1♦-1♥-4♦ as a strong 7-3.

Most play it as strong 6-4 though.

[bluecalm]

Standard bidding is:

1♦ 1♥
3♦ pass

Of course standard sucks here.
One of those situations where changing your system will reap bigger benefits than improving your judgment.

If you play gazilli this hand is wtp (because you either go through 2♣ forcing or use 2NT as showing 6+♦-3♥ if that's your choice).
Playing precision the hand is truly WTP. You are automatically in game before you even start thinking how to bid this.

With Gazilli it goes:

1♦ - 1♥
2♣* - 2♥**
3/4♥ - 4♥

2♣ = either natural or any 17+
2♥ = weak, not GF even opposite 17+
rest natural

In precision it goes (assuming Meckwell simplified base):

1♣ - 1♦
2♦ - 2♥
4♥

[bucky]

I think this might be a hand where big club system wins over standard bidding. After 1♦ 1♥, 3♦ seems the bid that is least distorting, although it is pretty heavy with the actual hand. It's possible that a clever 1♠ or 2♣ rebid from opener might work out better on this hand, but they will often lose on others.

[bluecalm]

Quote

1♦-1♥
  2♠-3♠
  4♥

Talking of things that Bluecalm doesn't like, if 1♦-1♥;1♠ were forcing you could then play 1♦-1♥;2♠ as artificial, covering various strong hands including this one.

Oh c'mon. I have nothing against playing 1♠ not being limited to 17 or w/e. I just say you can pass that with weakish hand hence it's NF. I think I would agree with followers of this style what hand bid this way. I just call the bid which can be passed NF and apparently other people call it forcing as it's usually not passed

I am all for using some bid to show 6+♦-3 in partner's major (or to use multimeaning bids when it's one of the options). I usually use 2NT for those hands playing precision or polish club (cause natural 2NT is not needed there). If you play Gazilli you can do that too with either 2♠ or 2NT.
The problem arises if partner bids ♠ instad of ♥. If you play Gazilli you can still use 2♥ as multimeaning (cause all the monster's go to 2♣ anyway). I guess in real standard you are not going to bid 2♥ though !

[ONEferBRID]

We've seen where 3C! has been used as an artificial GF, SJS such as in:
1M - 1NT!
3C!

or
1D - 1S
3C!

Using gnasher's idea ( of 2S! ) for the 1H response, partner has 2 additional rebids that he otherwise wouldn't have if 3C! were used ( namely 2NT and 3C ) :

1D - 1H
2S!

and you can also use it for a 1C open:
1C - 1H
2S!

[Crunch3nt]

If you play a standard multi-two diamonds, this hand qualifies easily for 8 PT.

If not, and you are playing standard, just rebid 2NT anyway. You get to to 3NT or 4H. WTP?

The auction (not playing Gazilli or 2NT=3-6) 1m - 1M; 3m should deny 3M.

[aguahombre]

"If ....you are playing standard, just rebid 2NT anyway. You get to to 3NT or 4H. WTP?" (crunch3nt)

That is the most enticing "fake it" I have read, unless there are people whose initial responses are such that they can pass 2NT (I didn't say their responses suck ).

Obviously some artificial rebid after 1♦ 1♥ is better for this case; but I was waiting for a way of dealing with the hand absent gadgets. I really hated 2S if not a toy, and 3♦ seemed to head toward both wrong strain and wrong level.

[kayin801]

How bad is a 3♥ rebid? Just throwing that out there, though I don't feel comfortable making it.

(I would bid 1♦-1♥-3♦-P)

[aguahombre]

Well, other than also not being GF and telling pard the wrong number of hearts held? Am trying to read about the least horrible game forcing bid which allows us to uncover a 5-3 heart fit, if there is one.

[Fluffy]

well you all knew this I guess, but I still have to post it

1♦-1♥
2NT-3♣
3♥-4♥

2NT will find best game between 3NT and 4♥ it is true that sometimes 5♦ will be best, but you won't have the space to have the accuracy to find out, so just forcing to game works better.

[Free]

I overloaded my 2NT rebid (including hand of death), so this is like taking candy from a baby.

[bluecalm]

Quote

overloaded my 2NT rebid (including hand of death), so this is like taking candy from a baby.

So you play it as forcing ?

Quote

We've seen where 3C! has been used as an artificial GF, SJS such as in:
1M - 1NT!
3C!

or
1D - 1S
3C!

Using gnasher's idea ( of 2S! )

All is easy if this hand was GF opposite 1♥ response but it isn't imo. Do you guys all want to GF with it ?

[hanp]

I think it's a very good idea to use 2S as potentially artificial in the auctions 1m - 1H, and also to use 1C - 1S - 1D as potentially artificial. Serious partnerships that claim not play those as artificial but bid it without real suits anyway will do better by having firm agreements on what hands those auctions can contain and how these are shown afterwards. By using a little artificiality a lot of clarity can be gained and space can be saved.

[Free]

bluecalm, on Sep 10 2010, 11:08 AM, said:

Quote

overloaded my 2NT rebid (including hand of death), so this is like taking candy from a baby.

So you play it as forcing ?

Yes it's forcing for 1 round, but not GF (usually we bid game however). It can be 18-19 BAL, GF with 4M, or 16+ with 6m-3M.

I'd prefer to overload reverses, but my partner doesn't like it.

[Fluffy]

hanp, on Sep 10 2010, 10:37 AM, said:

and also to use 1C - 1S - 1D as potentially artificial.

Very good, you bid 1♦ then correct to 2♦ and partner alerts, so sad this doesn't work with spades because then it is a legal call .

[Fluffy]

Free, on Sep 10 2010, 11:39 AM, said:

bluecalm, on Sep 10 2010, 11:08 AM, said:

Quote

overloaded my 2NT rebid (including hand of death), so this is like taking candy from a baby.

So you play it as forcing ?

Yes it's forcing for 1 round, but not GF (usually we bid game however). It can be 18-19 BAL, GF with 4M, or 16+ with 6m-3M.

I'd prefer to overload reverses, but my partner doesn't like it.

I have it overloaded also with 19+ with 6+ cards in my suit

[bluecalm]

Quote

Yes it's forcing for 1 round, but not GF (usually we bid game however). It can be 18-19 BAL, GF with 4M, or 16+ with 6m-3M.

I'd prefer to overload reverses, but my partner doesn't like it.

Imo it is decent solution, especially if you combine it with putting all 18-19 balanced hands in 1♣ so after 1♦ 2NT is always some kind of unbal strong hand (6-3M, 6d-4c, 5d-4c); this way you can have natural reverses and natural jumpshifts (showing 5cards). Better yet would be putting all 18-19 balanced hands in mexican 2♦. Then I would even like to play such system...

[aguahombre]

bluecalm, on Sep 10 2010, 05:48 AM, said:

Better yet would be putting all 18-19 balanced hands in mexican 2♦. Then I would even like to play such system...

Speaking of yummy. I have seen M2♦ in action, but have never noticed a sequence where it gained over some other methods. I imagine it is valuable as an "eliminator" --so the 18-19 bal. hand is not a possibility for a 2NT rebid, which can then be used for something else. The drawback (hence, yummy) is when the partnership would have been better off passing a 1m bid than playing in 2NT.

[ONEferBRID]

♠ Ax
♥ Kxx
♦ AQxxxxx
♣ A

♠ xxxx
♥ AQ10xx
♦ x
♣ xxx

Just playing some more with gnasher's 2S! "toy" ( GF, may be artificial ).
The beauty of it is that the clarification stays BELOW 3NT :

1D - 1H
2S! - 2NT! ( asks for clarification )
??
   3C! = 4s, no 3h, 5+d
   3D! = long Diam, no 4s, no 3h
   3H! = 3h, no 4s, 5+d
   3S! = 4s AND 3h, 5+d

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Similar scheme for 1C open:
1C - 1H
2S! - 2NT!
??
  3C! = long Cl
  3D! = 4s, no 3h, 5+c
  3H! = 3h
  3S! = 4s and 3h