[sathyab]

A couple of ATB's.

1)

Scoring: MP

1♠ p 1nt X
2♦ 2♥ 2♠ p
p 3♥ 3♠ p
p p p

---

North, on lead found a trump lead to beat 3♠ a trick. But undoubled it wasn't worth a lot of MP as 3♥ making 3 or 4 were most common.

2)

Scoring: MP

1♠ p 1nt X
2♦ 2♥ 2♠ p
p 3♥ 3♠ p
p p p

---

4♥ undoubled wasn't worth many MP as 4♦ makes fro N-S.

[awm]

1) North... but I don't really like North's 2♥...3♥ sequence. This suggests a much weaker hand with longer hearts. I'd prefer 3♥ over 2♦, which should show real values and might get you to a heart game or at least shut out East. Note that 4♥ is decent opposite the actual south hand, which is quite minimum in terms of values.

2) South. He made a weak bid and heard opponents bid game in the suit where he has a huge amount of defense. While you can certainly construct hands where 4♥ makes, I think at MPs you have to go with the odds here and protect your plus score.

[JLOGIC]

North has a super automatic double of 3S. I mean for starters LHO made a completely illogical sequence vulnerable, he announced a hand too weak to bid 1S p 2S, but then competed to 3S all by himself. He is just saying he has no values and wants to be doubled. They are also very likely to have only 8 trumps on this auction.

Secondly, partner came into a live auction with a takeout double, likely with a doubleton spade. He has an opening bid, and we have 11. It's quite likely 3H was making and we have enough values to think we can just beat them on power. +100 would be a disaster here.

Lastly, wtf is 2H then 3H. Again, partner has at least an opening bid and we just bid 2H?? And followed it with...3H?? lol. Please make at least an invitational bid!

Clee and Han actually had a funny auction on this hand, I think clee was pretty imaginative even though I don't agree with his bidding. They started the same:

1S p 1N X
2D 2H

Clee said he was "checking" to see if LHO had 3 spades (or RHO 6) or not. If partner had a t/o X with 3 spades, he didn't like his JTx with a spade coming through and was content to play 2S. However if they bid 2S, partner would have a doubleton so clee was going to balance with 4H (lol). Amusing plan to say the least.

I would categorize this X as a completely standard matchpoint double of 3S though with so many points and the opps having announced weakness but still bidding vul.

The second hand I would never double.

A )I'm worried they are cold, I have 1 trick and partner bid 4D presumably to preempt them out of hearts with his stiff

B )I'm worried if they are not cold single dummy, they will play it basically double dummy after my double (they know I didn't bid 1H with 4 of them so they can infer a lot about my hand).

C)I'm also worried that they can effectively run to spades, they might have 9 of them (and I suspect RHO would actually run on this hand, though they only have 8 of them).

D)I don't think they will go down multiple, and white I doubt 50 and 100 is a huge difference. Again, they can play double dummy and I only have 1 trick and a partner who tried to up the preempt.

The one thing that is messing with my mind is whether we have done well in this auction or not. We have pushed them to the 4 level, so that might be good even without the double. On the other hand 1D p 1H is a totally normal bid, and that may have picked off their hearts which would allow us to play in 3D at other tables possibly (actually at my table I played 2D). But, I also know they have a spade fit. 1D p 1H may have gotten a 1S overcall, or a t/o X, depending on what their shape is. If that's the case a lot of other tables may be in 3S so we may have done well. I would have guessed partner had 6 diamonds which would make a t/o X on my left likely of 1H, so I would have guessed that we were ahead of the field even if 4H is -2.

Of course it's the fast pairs and the field is absolutely horrible so probably they'll still misplay it even if I double. They also have probably bid 4H on some stupid hand like they did.

[helene_t]

2nd one: Would dbl by South be penalty? Generally, a direct seat double by preemptor suggests a sac. I would think it applied here.

[jdonn]

I was also going to post north should bid 3♥ the first time on the first hand. That's the real fault, it might have shut out east altogether. As it went I would absolutely double 3♠ as north (and I completely agree with the trump lead).

On the second one, why didn't south respond 1♥? I think he made a really weird bid and paid the price since it's very hard to double later with all the diamond length the partnership has. It's not like he knew his partner had the heart ten.

[peachy]

1) North made two dubious choices which I really want to call "mistakes" but maybe that is too severe. First, bid 3H. Second, it is an automatic double at pairs.

2) The second hand is not as clear. Maybe in the given auction South could double with the surprise at hearts that he has since this is MPs but I would not call it an error to pass. It feels like a top/bottom gamble. I wonder what would have happened after 1D (P) 1H (my choice). Is West still doubling?

[sathyab]

awm, on Aug 3 2010, 12:50 AM, said:

1) North... but I don't really like North's 2♥...3♥ sequence. This suggests a much weaker hand with longer hearts. I'd prefer 3♥ over 2♦, which should show real values and might get you to a heart game or at least shut out East. Note that 4♥ is decent opposite the actual south hand, which is quite minimum in terms of values.

2) South. He made a weak bid and heard opponents bid game in the suit where he has a huge amount of defense. While you can certainly construct hands where 4♥ makes, I think at MPs you have to go with the odds here and protect your plus score.

OK, agree with your observation about 2♥...3♥ sequence. You have the values for an invitation, but given that partner can easily be doubling without 4♥s on a 13(45) shape or even 2344 shape, 3♥ may commit you irrevocably to a strain when your eight-card fit may be in ♣s instead.

I think 2♥ followed by a X allows you to locate your best fit. Yes, once in a while 3♥ might get you to game where it could go all pass over 2♥, but how likely is that compared to partner making a T/O double w/o 4 ♥s ?

[Rodney26]

sathyab, on Aug 3 2010, 02:36 PM, said:

awm, on Aug 3 2010, 12:50 AM, said:

1) North... but I don't really like North's 2♥...3♥ sequence. This suggests a much weaker hand with longer hearts. I'd prefer 3♥ over 2♦, which should show real values and might get you to a heart game or at least shut out East. Note that 4♥ is decent opposite the actual south hand, which is quite minimum in terms of values.

2) South. He made a weak bid and heard opponents bid game in the suit where he has a huge amount of defense. While you can certainly construct hands where 4♥ makes, I think at MPs you have to go with the odds here and protect your plus score.

OK, agree with your observation about 2♥...3♥ sequence. You have the values for an invitation, but given that partner can easily be doubling without 4♥s on a 13(45) shape or even 2344 shape, 3♥ may commit you irrevocably to a strain when your eight-card fit may be in ♣s instead.

I think 2♥ followed by a X allows you to locate your best fit. Yes, once in a while 3♥ might get you to game where it could go all pass over 2♥, but how likely is that compared to partner making a T/O double w/o 4 ♥s ?

I also like 3♥ initially, especially since I play the death seat double as fairly substantial (although not as substantial as an overcall). I think if we're going to start by going low, why not bid 3♣ the second time? Repeating hearts should be a far different hand.

At our table, there was no double from South but North balanced with 2NT and they settled nicely in 3♥.

[Rodney26]

jdonn, on Aug 3 2010, 10:35 AM, said:

On the second one, why didn't south respond 1♥? I think he made a really weird bid and paid the price since it's very hard to double later with all the diamond length the partnership has. It's not like he knew his partner had the heart ten.

I'd probably bid 3♦ too jdonn. My thinking would be that partner usually has 12-14 so chances are the hand will be a part score battle. The opponents have at least an 8 card spade fit (but probably more), we have at least an eight card diamond fit (but probably more), and we have at most an eight card heart fit (but probably not). Today we pick off their best strain so 1♥ works; in the long run, I think spades will be their best fit 90% of the time so I want to at least start their guesswork on the 3 level rather than handing them a cheap 1♠ overcall. 3♦ also limits my defensive strength, which seems paltry until they land in hearts. In spades, I'm probably not taking more than a trick on defense.

Reverse the hearts and spades, and I'd bid 1♠.

[Rodney26]

Quote

Of course it's the fast pairs and the field is absolutely horrible so probably they'll still misplay it even if I double. They also have probably bid 4H on some stupid hand like they did.

JLOGIC, which (unrestricted in terms of age & MP) national events do you think are the weakest based on your experience?

Based on my limited experience, I'd rank the six easiest (in terms of fields) as:

Mixed
Werhner
Fast
IMPS
Fall Swiss
Silodor

[awm]

Rodney26, on Aug 5 2010, 05:55 PM, said:

JLOGIC, which (unrestricted in terms of age & MP) national events do you think are the weakest based on your experience?

Based on my limited experience, I'd rank the six easiest (in terms of fields) as:

Mixed
Werhner
Fast
IMPS
Fall Swiss
Silodor

This definitely changes from year to year.

For example, last year's IMP pairs was at the same time as the first Platinum Pairs event, which drew a lot of the better players/partnerships in town for Reno. The IMP pairs field looked a lot weaker than it was in previous nationals (when IMP pairs was parallel only to day four of the Vandy).

The Wernher pairs is often a pretty weak event, but it depends somewhat on what happens with the Spingold. Basically all the teams that lose the Spingold the first day show up in the Wernher. If this is more than half the Spingold field (like this year) then the Wernher pairs should be a decent event. If this is just a couple teams (as it was a few years ago when about 2/3 of the spingold field got byes) then the Wernher is ridiculous for a national event.