BBO Discussion Forums: Round 1, Board 4 - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Round 1, Board 4 Forum bidding Contest

#1 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2010-July-25, 22:28

Scoring: MP

Board 4. Bidding Script: North will open or overcall in ♣'s as cheaply as possible, but not above 3♣. He will keep bidding ♣'s until 3♣ is reached. If north bids 2♣ it will be south who carries on to 3♣ if necessary. If west or east end up in 4♥'s or higher (in any denomination) south will double.

Notes: When played in real world, most seemed to think east is a little heavy for 1NT, no doubt due to the increased lighter and lighter nature of the 1NT overcall. The auction should be fairly straight foward with a 1NT overcall. West will try transfer to 2♥, and East will probably pass over 3♣ by north, so that west will be in position to take the push to 3♥.

Scores: 3♥ew = 10, 3♣xns=4, 3♣ns=2, 3♠=2, 4♥x=1

3♥W 10
4♥xW 9
3♥E 1
3♣N 3
4♥xx W 1
3♣x N 2
4♠x E 1
3H E 1

4Sx E bluecalm/redds
4Hxx W Codo-Fluffy
4Hx W peachy/lg62
4HX W mbodell - javabean
4Hx W CanadaGrl/Gerardo
4Hx W zasanya/ravia6
4Hx W kristen33/jillybean
4Hx W East4Evil/sohcahtoa
4Hx W ant590 - crayzeejim
4HX W cascade kermit
4Hx W sallyally/joylson
3H W tlgoodwin/timg
3H W olegru - driver733
3H W gnasher/catch22
3H W helene_t-agusaris
3H W jlall/hanp
3H W karlson/threenobob
3H W tylere / bid_em_up
3H W Hrothgar/Free
3H W rogerClee/cherdano
3H W mohitz/akjq
3H E Flycycle/Wackojack
3Cx N elianna/awm
3C x N kfay/jchiu
3C N jdonn/gib
3C N lobowolf/bkjswan
3C N Siegmund/MSchmahl
BA 0 j0i/gwnn
NA 0 Tomi2-JHDW
NA 0 Vampyr/Lamford
--Ben--

#2 User is offline   awm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,735
  • Joined: 2005-February-09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Zurich, Switzerland

Posted 2010-July-25, 23:11

I'm not sure why 4♥X scores any points at all here, as it seems like a sure bottom board (-200 if you're lucky).

I'd also note that 3♣X is a top any time the contract fails, which I'd rate as rather more than the 20% odds which the current scoring seems to rate it at.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
0

#3 User is offline   Mbodell 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,871
  • Joined: 2007-April-22
  • Location:Santa Clara, CA

Posted 2010-July-25, 23:40

awm, on Jul 25 2010, 09:11 PM, said:

I'm not sure why 4♥X scores any points at all here, as it seems like a sure bottom board (-200 if you're lucky).

I'd also note that 3♣X is a top any time the contract fails, which I'd rate as rather more than the 20% odds which the current scoring seems to rate it at.

Well, your two comments point out an inconsistency if 3♣X makes anything close to half the time, then 4♥X is unlikely to be a bottom (I don't think -3 is that likely).

Also, if 9 pairs in the contest ended up in 4♥X, it seems the -200 (or -500) will not be that lonely or uncommon a score. Bad yes, worse than 10%, no way.
0

#4 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,772
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2010-July-26, 00:05

The hand in the movie for NS made heart contracts look bad.

I thought the 3♣ rebid was reasonably frisky with the hand shown. Bidding 3♣ with that hand is offering 200 or more reasonably often.

That makes the heart contracts look bad.

If north has all of the aces which I feel is more consistent with the bidding then 4♥ is a much better contract and is very unlikely to be doubled.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#5 User is offline   JavaBean 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 44
  • Joined: 2008-November-08

Posted 2010-July-26, 00:42

For what it's worth, 4♥ was not doubled by the operator at our table. We obviously aren't running anywhere and wouldn't be happy if we had, but it's a bit odd to not be offered the chance.
0

#6 User is offline   Fluffy 

  • World International Master without a clue
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,404
  • Joined: 2003-November-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:madrid

Posted 2010-July-26, 02:51

I must be really stupid, because I knew Codo had ♥Kxxxxx and I bid 4♥ because RHO must have the 3 aces after LHO's pass first round and he is not gonna lead a diamond, on a trump or club lead 4♥ is a good spot.
0

#7 User is offline   Fluffy 

  • World International Master without a clue
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,404
  • Joined: 2003-November-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:madrid

Posted 2010-July-26, 03:03

BTW: south didn't bid 3♣ at our table

1♣-X-ps-1♥
2♣-X-ps-3♥
ps-4♥


Not sure what the meaning of carries on to 3♣ is.
0

#8 User is offline   Hanoi5 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,083
  • Joined: 2006-August-31
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Santiago, Chile
  • Interests:Bridge, Video Games, Languages, Travelling.

Posted 2010-July-26, 03:59

Fluffy, on Jul 26 2010, 05:03 AM, said:

BTW: south didn't bid 3♣ at our table

1♣-X-ps-1♥
2♣-X-ps-3♥
ps-4♥


Not sure what the meaning of carries on to 3♣ is.

It says 3♣ if neccessary. I wondered why so many pairs bid 4♥ over their partner's sign-off in 3♥...

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


My YouTube Channel
0

#9 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2010-July-26, 05:04

At our table, South bid 3♣ over the double of 2♣.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#10 User is offline   Free 

  • mmm Duvel
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Interests:Duvel, Whisky

Posted 2010-July-26, 05:29

Why is 3H by E worth only 1 point and 3H by W 10? It should rather be the other way around imo... Or is it a typo? Anyway we got 10 :)
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
0

#11 User is offline   hotShot 

  • Axxx Axx Axx Axx
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,976
  • Joined: 2003-August-31
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2010-July-26, 05:42

Fluffy, on Jul 26 2010, 10:03 AM, said:

BTW: south didn't bid 3♣ at our table

1♣-X-ps-1♥
2♣-X-ps-3♥
ps-4♥


Not sure what the meaning of carries on to 3♣ is.

inquiry, on Jul 26 2010, 05:28 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

Board 4. Bidding Script: North will open or overcall in ♣'s as cheaply as possible, but not above 3♣. He will keep bidding ♣'s until 3♣ is reached. If north bids 2♣ it will be south who carries on to 3♣ if necessary. If west or east end up in 4♥'s or higher (in any denomination) south will double.

Notes: When played in real world, most seemed to think east is a little heavy for 1NT, no doubt due to the increased lighter and lighter nature of the 1NT overcall. The auction should be fairly straight foward with a 1NT overcall.  West will try transfer to 2♥, and East will probably pass over 3♣ by north, so that west will be in position to take the push to 3♥.

Hmm ,the diagram above says West is dealer, so we will assume a pass before 1♣.
0

#12 User is offline   TimG 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,972
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA

Posted 2010-July-26, 06:30

Free, on Jul 26 2010, 06:29 AM, said:

Why is 3H by E worth only 1 point and 3H by W 10? It should rather be the other way around imo... Or is it a typo? Anyway we got 10 :)

That's a frequency chart, not a score chart.
0

#13 User is offline   Free 

  • mmm Duvel
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Interests:Duvel, Whisky

Posted 2010-July-26, 06:33

TimG, on Jul 26 2010, 01:30 PM, said:

Free, on Jul 26 2010, 06:29 AM, said:

Why is 3H by E worth only 1 point and 3H by W 10?  It should rather be the other way around imo... Or is it a typo? Anyway we got 10  :)

That's a frequency chart, not a score chart.

Right zzzzzz
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
0

#14 User is offline   bluecalm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,555
  • Joined: 2007-January-22

Posted 2010-July-26, 08:39

I don't get the scoring method.
3♥ is normal contract and there is no way it would score a top at MP's.
It seems that some hands are scored by one method and other by different one.

Any sane pair (not us) should have no trouble staying out of 4♥ so bidding 3♥ would net you 60% board - tying with all sane pairs, beating all the idiots (like us) :)
0

#15 User is offline   TimG 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,972
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA

Posted 2010-July-26, 10:25

bluecalm, on Jul 26 2010, 09:39 AM, said:

I don't get the scoring method.
3♥ is normal contract and there is no way it would score a top at MP's.
It seems that some hands are scored by one method and other by different one.

Any sane pair (not us) should have no trouble staying out of 4♥ so bidding 3♥ would net you 60% board - tying with all sane pairs, beating all the idiots (like us) :)

In this contest, 11 pairs stopped in 3♥ while 10 pairs reached 4♥. So, I don't think your premise that "any sane pair should have no trouble staying out of 4♥" is correct.
0

#16 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2010-July-27, 14:27

awm, on Jul 26 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

I'm not sure why 4♥X scores any points at all here, as it seems like a sure bottom board (-200 if you're lucky).

I'd also note that 3♣X is a top any time the contract fails, which I'd rate as rather more than the 20% odds which the current scoring seems to rate it at.

Not entirely sure what to make of suggested scoring changes here.

For awn's comment that 4♥ should get a zero, 4♥x scores better than both 4♥xx and 4♠x, both of which were played in this competition, in addition to 9 pairs playing in 4♥x tying each other. Maybe I didn't score it high enough!!! I was thinking along the lines that -200 is a zero-ish. Furthermore 4♥x will outscore 3♣x making, so I could see a counter arguement that it needs to be bumped up just a little.

I agree 3♣x is a top or bottom. I thought 3♣x was making somewhere between 30 and 37% of the time. If it was a percentage points lower than 30%, it would be a 3, if it was higher than 37% it would be a 5 or higher. I thought this was a fair placement for that contract.

As for why a 10 for a reasonably normal 3♥, I have two answers to that. I tried to make maximum on each hand at least a 10. See the hand where everyone bid 4♠. That is probably not the best thing to do, but I confused myself initially by picking out hands based on specific NS hands, but that isn't fair way to do this. Round 2 will avoid this flaw in hand selection. Still on the given results. Having said that, if we matchpoint the 26 boards here, giving a top to the 3♥, we find it earns 21.5 out of 26 possible matchpoints. As a percentage that is 82.7, and on a 12 point scale that works out to be 9.9. I don't calculate the matchpoints this way, however, I just used it to check teh arguement that heart part-score should be average on this hand.

So for the moment, the scores are staying were they are, but open questions are:

Should 4♥x get a higher score?
Should 3♣x get a higher score? Should it get a lower score? I will try some simulations.
--Ben--

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users