[tgoodwinsr]

Doesn't anyone remember when 1H-P; 1S-2C; Dbl. meant fourth hand had walked into your second suit?

[peachy]

ggwhiz, on Jul 26 2010, 11:10 AM, said:

I don't like what support doubles have morphed into.

They were invented by Meckwell to avoid getting to too many 3-3 trump fits!

Eric Rodwell invented them.
I don't know if you were joking about the 3-3 fits, but I suppose you were.

[aguahombre]

tgoodwinsr, on Jul 26 2010, 10:50 AM, said:

Doesn't anyone remember when 1H-P; 1S-2C; Dbl. meant fourth hand had walked into your second suit?

Yes. We used to call it an Informative Double: extra values, short in pard's response, length in the overcalled suit. Informing partner that they might have made a mistake, but not an absolute demand to play it there.

Now, we get laughed at for using such antiquated methods. And in EBU, we would have to alert it.

By the way, welcome to the fora.

[ggwhiz]

Quote

Eric Rodwell invented them.
I don't know if you were joking about the 3-3 fits, but I suppose you were.

I can't remember the exact article but it's no joke.

After say a 1♦ opener, I believe they respond 1M on 3 cards, with a side singleton for example instead of 1nt. Opener also raised freely on 3.

[Cascade]

aguahombre, on Jul 27 2010, 04:30 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 25 2010, 02:38 AM, said:

but I love support doubles and think bidding suffers greatly without them most of the time. It gives you a very inexpensive action to describe a very important feature that is quite common and occurs in a wide range of hands.

This, of course, is exactly why so many others like support doubles. Certainly valid.

On the other side, support doubles give the opponents very inexpensive tools (redouble, raise, new suit, and cue) which are also important, common, and occurring in a wide range of hands. This doesn't mean the "support double" people are wrong. But I don't think the ones who don't use them come out on the losing end of the competitive situations as often as the ones who use them say.

Was that last sentence a triple negative, or just a double negative followed by a negative?

Indeed when you actually have a 5+=3 fit which is reasonably often you have given the opponent's additional bidding space. It seems then that you would much rather have been able to raise partner's suit immediately. Obviously you can't do that always but some of the time raising with three would seem to make life more difficult for the opponents.

[jdonn]

aguahombre, on Jul 26 2010, 11:30 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 25 2010, 02:38 AM, said:

but I love support doubles and think bidding suffers greatly without them most of the time. It gives you a very inexpensive action to describe a very important feature that is quite common and occurs in a wide range of hands.

This, of course, is exactly why so many others like support doubles. Certainly valid.

On the other side, support doubles give the opponents very inexpensive tools (redouble, raise, new suit, and cue) which are also important, common, and occurring in a wide range of hands. This doesn't mean the "support double" people are wrong. But I don't think the ones who don't use them come out on the losing end of the competitive situations as often as the ones who use them say.

Was that last sentence a triple negative, or just a double negative followed by a negative?

The entire paragraph was a negative. The support double gives people a redouble that is much less useful than the support double was. It does not give them a raise, new suit, or cuebid, since they had all of those things available if you didn't support double as well.

[aguahombre]

Except if you made a simple raise.

[jdonn]

And their raise is thus preempted how exactly? Think about it carefully before answering.

Have you considered that many hands which make a support double are not appropriate for a simple raise? For example when you are 3136 with extras and it goes 1♣ p 1♠ 2♥ you can double to show 3 card support planning to bid 3♣ next. When you are 3334 and it goes 1♣ p 1♥ 1♠ you can double to show 3 card support and still play in 1NT or 2♣. A support double is not interchangeable with a raise.