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MP bid problem

#1 User is offline   Rossoneri 

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Posted 2010-July-14, 06:59

Scoring: MP


Bidding goes:
1S-4D-4S-5D
P-P-?

Do you agree with 4S?
What do you bid now?
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#2 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2010-July-14, 07:10

4♠ 100%.

Now it is a tough decision but I guess I double.
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#3 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2010-July-14, 07:18

Seems like an easy 5♠ to me... especially since pard passed (i.e. has no diamond wastage).
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#4 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2010-July-14, 08:07

4S then 5S, but who really knows
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#5 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2010-July-14, 08:44

4♠ was IMO manadatory ;) and now I assume FP situation and try 5♠
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#6 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2010-July-14, 11:14

4♠, now 5♠. 5 trumps, an AK, and a void, slam might even be making but that's besides the point. I will take the push in fear that someone might have a void in spades and we can only take 4 tricks vs 5♦X. I really don't think this is a FP situation...we were under pressure to bid. Do we really want to concede a big penalty or defend 5♦X making if partner is forced to X with a weak NT and ♦Qx(x)? I don't think that I need to have this strong of a hand to bid 4♠.
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#7 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2010-July-14, 11:40

5S now for me. Doesnt feel close. If partner can't X this I'm not going to.

Not a forcing pass situation, for me anyway, since 4S wasn't necessarily a game bid on strength.
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#8 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2010-July-14, 12:15

Siegmund, on Jul 14 2010, 12:40 PM, said:

Not a forcing pass situation, for me anyway, since 4S wasn't necessarily a game bid on strength.

this
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#9 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-July-14, 14:01

my gues sis 5♠ also
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#10 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2010-July-15, 06:48

A minority of one :)

I guess I'm just not that confident that 5♠ is making. Partner has done nothing to show a hand beyond an ordinary minimum, perhaps ♠KQTxx ♥AJx ♦x ♣Qxxx in which case three losers are almost certain. And that doesn't even consider the possibility of a wasted diamond honor, or that sometimes when 5♠ is making, 5♦x is -800.
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#11 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2010-July-15, 07:20

billw55, on Jul 15 2010, 07:48 AM, said:

A minority of one  :)

I guess I'm just not that confident that 5♠ is making.  Partner has done nothing to show a hand beyond an ordinary minimum, perhaps ♠KQTxx ♥AJx ♦x ♣Qxxx in which case three losers are almost certain.  And that doesn't even consider the possibility of a wasted diamond honor, or that sometimes when 5♠ is making, 5♦x is -800.

I am a 5♠ bidder (the fifth spade, the diamond void, and partner not doubling 5♦), but I would never criticize double, you do have an Ace-King, partner has opened the bidding and you avoid bidding 5/5.

Having said that, I do believe you are dreaming if you think 800 is on the menu after partner didn't double 5♦.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#12 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-July-15, 07:35

Double at matchpoints, 5S at imps.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#13 User is offline   Rossoneri 

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Posted 2010-July-15, 10:55

Thanks for all the replies.

At the table, I thought 5♠ was not a certainty to make. I probably forgot to mention that we were playing 4 card majors, 12-14NT. Given that partner might easily have only 4, and the fact that we do open quite light, I decided to take what looked more like a sure plus by doubling 5♦. I do quite agree that pass by partner should be forcing!

I will post up the full hands later when I get home.
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#14 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-July-15, 12:35

Rossoneri, on Jul 15 2010, 05:55 PM, said:

At the table, I thought 5♠ was not a certainty to make. I probably forgot to mention that we were playing 4 card majors, 12-14NT. Given that partner might easily have only 4, and the fact that we do open quite light, I decided to take what looked more like a sure plus by doubling 5♦.

If partner has only four spades, he has a strong notrump, on which he'd probably have doubled 5♦. Hence we can expect him to have five spades.

If your style is to open 1NT with a five-card major, you also know he hasn't got one of those. That should make you slightly more inclined to bid 5♠ than if you were playing 5-card majors and a strong notrump.

Quote

I do quite agree that pass by partner should be forcing!

The consensus appears to have been that pass should not be forcing. Personally I'm astonished that anyone might think it should be.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#15 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2010-July-15, 13:28

While I agree that partner won't have a strong no-trump here, won't there be unbalanced hands that partner would double on playing five-card majors but would pass playing four-card majors?

Agree with pass being non-forcing.
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#16 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-July-15, 13:44

If even JLOGIC plays it as NF, it should probably be NF. :P
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#17 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2010-July-15, 16:55

Rossoneri, on Jul 15 2010, 11:55 AM, said:

I do quite agree that pass by partner should be forcing!

Agree with whom?
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#18 User is offline   Rossoneri 

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Posted 2010-July-15, 19:50

Scoring: MP


For some reason, I made a mistake in my earlier post. I meant to say I agree that pass should be NF.

And at the table, being the muppet that I am, I led A♣ and made the only continuation to let opponents get out for -200. Not that it would have mattered as most other tables were in 4♠+1 or 5♠=.
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#19 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-July-15, 21:59

Seems like any club or spade continuation would lead to -200.

I think it is standard to lead the king at the 5-level and for partner to give count. I know some even play Rusinov only at the 5-level.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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