[jillybean]

There was a funny sequence at the sectional this weekend,
Partner opens 1NT, my RHO bid 2♦'s.

I pause for a fraction, waiting for an alert but there was none forthcoming so I pass, my RHO then starts tapping her finger on the table next to the 2♦ card

More thought from LHO, then finaly 'alert' I thought it best not to ask. LHO makes her bid, RHO alerts and starts to explain the bid, my partner stops her short.

Thankfuly this was the only incident, if I had been playing in 'BCD' I'm sure there would have been many more cases of UI.
How do players get to be "A" players and still behave like this at the table?
Yes, we should have called the TD.

[jdonn]

The directors on the forum will disagree but I think what you guys did was fine. Of course call the director if you wanted to do something else depending what 2♦ meant though!

[aguahombre]

jillybean, on Jul 12 2010, 09:49 AM, said:

How do players get to be "A" players and still behave like this at the table?
Yes, we should have called the TD.

Asked and answered. Their behavior has never been challenged, because we all want to let it go, and perhaps just discuss it among ourselves behind the players' back. My partner and I have grumbled about these things to each other several times, over the years, without calling the director or otherwise reporting same.

They do it because we let them.

[Vampyr]

jdonn, on Jul 12 2010, 05:02 PM, said:

The directors on the forum will disagree but I think what you guys did was fine. Of course call the director if you wanted to do something else depending what 2♦ meant though!

Such as pass out 2♦?

[jdonn]

It's hard for you to pass out a bid made on your right.

[peachy]

jillybean, on Jul 12 2010, 10:49 AM, said:

How do players get to be "A" players and still behave like this at the table?

Thirty years at the club three times a week at an average of 0.5 masterpoints per week plus some occasional scratches at local sectionals and regional KO's does it just fine

[Fluffy]

the best thing you can do is stare at RHO and tell him: What are you doing with your finger?

[blackshoe]

The best thing you can do is call the director, give him the facts of what opponents did and did not do, and pray that he will do something about it (players aren't the only ones guilty of letting people get away with this stuff).

[Bbradley62]

If it's not worth a director call (although I think it certainly is), is it worth a Recorder form? If this pair makes a habit of cheating, eventually they should be slapped upside the head.

[CSGibson]

Bbradley62, on Jul 12 2010, 12:03 PM, said:

If it's not worth a director call (although I think it certainly is), is it worth a Recorder form? If this pair makes a habit of cheating, eventually they should be slapped upside the head.

Cheating is a very serious allegation, and should not be used to describe UI situations unless there is a systematic prepared method of trying to covertly transmit that UI (like foot-tapping to give information about what aces one has). In my opinion, while the actions described are not appropriate, they should certainly not be labeled cheating.

[Bbradley62]

CSGibson, on Jul 12 2010, 03:15 PM, said:

Bbradley62, on Jul 12 2010, 12:03 PM, said:

If it's not worth a director call (although I think it certainly is), is it worth a Recorder form?  If this pair makes a habit of cheating, eventually they should be slapped upside the head.

Cheating is a very serious allegation, and should not be used to describe UI situations unless there is a systematic prepared method of trying to covertly transmit that UI (like foot-tapping to give information about what aces one has). In my opinion, while the actions described are not appropriate, they should certainly not be labeled cheating.

I disagree. I would define "cheating" as "deliberately breaking the rules", which RHO clearly did.

[jdonn]

Bbradley62, on Jul 12 2010, 02:21 PM, said:

CSGibson, on Jul 12 2010, 03:15 PM, said:

Bbradley62, on Jul 12 2010, 12:03 PM, said:

If it's not worth a director call (although I think it certainly is), is it worth a Recorder form?  If this pair makes a habit of cheating, eventually they should be slapped upside the head.

Cheating is a very serious allegation, and should not be used to describe UI situations unless there is a systematic prepared method of trying to covertly transmit that UI (like foot-tapping to give information about what aces one has). In my opinion, while the actions described are not appropriate, they should certainly not be labeled cheating.

I disagree. I would define "cheating" as "deliberately breaking the rules", which RHO clearly did.

Lol they aren't trying to cheat they are just clueless, come on. I'm glad real life isn't like the forums where you sneeze and 10 minutes get wasted.

[Bbradley62]

jdonn, on Jul 12 2010, 03:29 PM, said:

Lol they aren't trying to cheat they are just clueless, come on. I'm glad real life isn't like the forums where you sneeze and 10 minutes get wasted.

Ok. So, she knows she's not allowed to say "Partner, you should alert my bid", but she doesn't know she's not supposed to do what she did. I guess some education would be appropriate.

[JLOGIC]

Depends on the situation but I think the best thing to do is to say something like "You can't do that!" when he taps his finger and then let it go. Depending on how much you like the opps you can also try a wide variety of smart ass remarks!

I wouldn't take it beyond that, at least that would have stopped the guy from explaining his own alert. I guess you could try calling the director and hoping he gives a procedural penalty but in reality you just waste a bunch of time for no purpose imo.

I wouldn't blame you though...I'm pretty tolerant and basically never call the director but the situation you described would definitely annoy me greatly. I understand jdonns point of view but there is a line somewhere and this is pretty close for me.

[mrdct]

JLOGIC, on Jul 12 2010, 03:10 PM, said:

Depending on how much you like the opps you can also try a wide variety of smart ass remarks!

That's usually my preferred response to this sort of situation:

"That's a nasty twitch you have there"

"I see morse code is coming back in a big way"

Any other good ones people can think of?

[Vampyr]

jdonn, on Jul 12 2010, 06:04 PM, said:

It's hard for you to pass out a bid made on your right.

I meant the pair, not one player.

[ArtK78]

Some time ago, playing in a local sectional, my pard and I were opposite a player who is a well known character in our area. He does many odd things, most of which are inappropriate. He was playing with a lesser player, and in response to his partner's 1♥ opening bid, he bid 4♦. "ALERT!" This, by itself, is not unusual. However, it was the character who bid 4♦ who was alerting!

We called the director. Unfortunately, she was inexperienced and easily buffaloed by some of the players, including this character. She didn't see anything wrong with what he did! Eventually, my pard and I decided to let this go to get the game going. But we did have a long talk with the TD after the session to explain to her why it was wrong for the bidder to alert his own bid. Eventually she understood what the problem was.

[JLOGIC]

ArtK78, on Jul 13 2010, 09:44 AM, said:

Some time ago, playing in a local sectional, my pard and I were opposite a player who is a well known character in our area. He does many odd things, most of which are inappropriate. He was playing with a lesser player, and in response to his partner's 1♥ opening bid, he bid 4♦. "ALERT!" This, by itself, is not unusual. However, it was the character who bid 4♦ who was alerting!

We called the director. Unfortunately, she was inexperienced and easily buffaloed by some of the players, including this character. She didn't see anything wrong with what he did! Eventually, my pard and I decided to let this go to get the game going. But we did have a long talk with the TD after the session to explain to her why it was wrong for the bidder to alert his own bid. Eventually she understood what the problem was.

Thus proving jdonns point

[mycroft]

I've had a player come up to me with a hand, asking me to explain to his partner why his bid was illegal. And that partner wasn't an LOL. And it took me three passes to get through.

I've had a player tell me, and several other good players and directors (and the odd one that was both), that it is entirely appropriate to use partner's Alerts and explanations in his bidding. After being told otherwise by everyone present, he still thinks so - he did it at my table, playing, a year later. Unfortunately, it would have been just a rounder zero, so the lesson didn't take. But he's got 1500+, so people listen to him.

I don't actually mind the ones who wake up their partner that they need to Alert the call - almost all of them, unlike the OP's case, know what the bid means, they just don't remember they have to let us know. I do point out, if possible, that others may not be so laxadaisical.

[aguahombre]

mycroft, on Jul 13 2010, 04:08 PM, said:

I don't actually mind the ones who wake up their partner that they need to Alert the call - almost all of them, unlike the OP's case, know what the bid means, they just don't remember they have to let us know.  I do point out, if possible, that others may not be so laxadaisical.

This is a very good point. My partner, at the table and in life, has probably never forgotten the meaning of an alertable call in the entire time we have been playing. But, she occasionally will fail to alert, or annnouce, when she immediately goes into the process of how to proceed.

However, people who don't know us might have a problem if I wake her up. So, I just wait til the auction is over and stop the opening leader to explain. Pard just gets this quizacle (is that a word?) look on her face ---still not realizing that she didn't alert.