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Handling 6-5 hands

#1 User is offline   mohitz 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 13:04

Suppose you have an opening hand with 6511 shape and 6 cards in the lower suit. You are playing 2/1.

How do you open the hand and what is the rebid plan? If it depends on the strength of the hand, what is the minimum hand on which you open in the lower suit?
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#2 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 13:18

A good 12 is enough for me, i.e. AK and AJ or AQJ and KQ. Showing shape is good. I will reverse and repeat my second suit, partner should be advised.
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#3 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 14:46

I'll always open 1 with the black suits, otherwise it depends on which suits and the suit quality. x AQxxx AQxxxx x I would open 1 but add a red jack and I would open 1 and reverse.
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#4 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 14:53

What do you do Nigel over 1C-1N when you have a 10 count with 56 in the blacks?
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#5 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 15:06

I don't think that happens too often as someone would have bid hearts.
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#6 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 16:58

I'd always open the 6-card suit unless it was something like AKQxx and Jxxxxx. Occasionally you lose the 5-3 fit, but that doesn't have to be bad.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#7 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 17:01

I will always open the higher ranking suit unless I was strong enough to reverse - about 15+ with good suits would be an absolute minimum.
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#8 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 17:46

With 5=6 in the blacks I don't think there is a major problem over 1 1NT
as:

1. You know there is a club fit

2. If you are strong enough that there might be still a game you can still reverse

3. As Helene pointed out the auction wont occur very frequently
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#9 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 21:37

The_Hog, on Jun 28 2010, 06:01 PM, said:

I will always open the higher ranking suit unless I was strong enough to reverse - about 15+ with good suits would be an absolute minimum.

My absolute minimum for a reverse is a superb 12 count with all the points in the two suits.. ie AQT9x,void,xx,AQT9xx has more than adequate playing strength for me, and I'd likely do the same if 1-1 in red suits.

Anyhow.. I agree with Wayne that you're fine if you open 1 and pard responds 1NT since some support is certain.

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#10 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2010-June-29, 01:56

neilkaz, on Jun 29 2010, 10:37 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Jun 28 2010, 06:01 PM, said:

I will always open the higher ranking suit unless I was strong enough to reverse - about 15+ with good suits would be an absolute minimum.

My absolute minimum for a reverse is a superb 12 count with all the points in the two suits.. ie AQT9x,void,xx,AQT9xx has more than adequate playing strength for me, and I'd likely do the same if 1-1 in red suits.

Anyhow.. I agree with Wayne that you're fine if you open 1 and pard responds 1NT since some support is certain.

.. neilkaz ..

Neil, the problem is not with the playing strength, that is fine. The problem occurs when partner thinks you have the values for a reverse which you promised and doubles a high level opponents contract. Or will you double cross her and pull her penalty doubles?
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#11 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-June-29, 02:03

The_Hog, on Jun 29 2010, 08:56 AM, said:

Neil, the problem is not with the playing strength, that is fine. The problem occurs when partner thinks you have the values for a reverse which you promised and doubles a high level opponents contract. Or will you double cross her and pull her penalty doubles?

If it's your partnership style to reverse on a 5-6 12-count, and you reverse then show a 5-6, why would partner play you for normal reversing values?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#12 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2010-June-29, 02:08

gnasher, on Jun 29 2010, 03:03 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Jun 29 2010, 08:56 AM, said:

Neil, the problem is not with the playing strength, that is fine. The problem occurs when partner thinks you have the values for a reverse which you promised  and doubles a high level opponents contract. Or will you double cross her and pull her penalty doubles?

If it's your partnership style to reverse on a 5-6 12-count, and you reverse then show a 5-6, why would partner play you for normal reversing values?

My question was going to be, if I open, partner responds, and I reverse, what makes us think the opponents are about to bid a high level contract?

I think the real problem with reversing on 5-6 12 counts is you make the range of the reverse very wide. It helps of course that partner knows you could have such a hand but it doesn't change the fact that your range is now something like 12 to 21 which is quite wide as the auction is rising. The playing strength won't always help if you don't find a fit. Or say partner bids 3 of your first suit and you then bid 3 of your second suit. Your range is still nearly as wide!
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#13 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-June-29, 02:51

jdonn, on Jun 29 2010, 03:08 AM, said:

My question was going to be, if I open, partner responds, and I reverse, what makes us think the opponents are about to bid a high level contract?

Yes indeed, strange thought.
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#14 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2010-June-29, 03:42

The_Hog, on Jun 28 2010, 11:01 PM, said:

I will always open the higher ranking suit unless I was strong enough to reverse - about 15+ with good suits would be an absolute minimum.

Agree, except that I for me a max is not hcp-based but loser-count based, i.e.

Axxxx
AKQxxx
x
x

(4 losers) is strong enough to me, whereas to the_hog it might not be ;)
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#15 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-June-29, 04:32

Does the Hog open 1S with 5-6 in the majors? :blink: :blink:
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#16 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-June-29, 04:51

hanp, on Jun 29 2010, 09:51 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 29 2010, 03:08 AM, said:

My question was going to be, if I open, partner responds, and I reverse, what makes us think the opponents are about to bid a high level contract?

Yes indeed, strange thought.

Nobody said that they've passed throighout whilst I've been bidding out my 6-5. I expect that the Hog was thinking of a sequence like this:

1 1 1NT 2
3 4 dbl pass
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#17 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2010-June-29, 05:13

gnasher, on Jun 29 2010, 05:51 AM, said:

hanp, on Jun 29 2010, 09:51 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 29 2010, 03:08 AM, said:

My question was going to be, if I open, partner responds, and I reverse, what makes us think the opponents are about to bid a high level contract?

Yes indeed, strange thought.

Nobody said that they've passed throighout whilst I've been bidding out my 6-5. I expect that the Hog was thinking of a sequence like this:

1 1 1NT 2
3 4 dbl pass

A worthy try, but surely a 1435 17 count would double here. 3 sounds very likely to be 5-6, and it would be a naive partner who doubled 4 on the grounds that partner has shown 17HCP.

I agree with han and josh. Anyway, distorting our shape every time we hold a 5-6 in case one day there is a competitive auction where partner doubles the opponents in the belief we hold a strong hand shows a mistaken set of priorities.
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#18 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2010-June-29, 06:59

The_Hog, on Jun 29 2010, 02:56 AM, said:

neilkaz, on Jun 29 2010, 10:37 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Jun 28 2010, 06:01 PM, said:

I will always open the higher ranking suit unless I was strong enough to reverse - about 15+ with good suits would be an absolute minimum.

My absolute minimum for a reverse is a superb 12 count with all the points in the two suits.. ie AQT9x,void,xx,AQT9xx has more than adequate playing strength for me, and I'd likely do the same if 1-1 in red suits.

Anyhow.. I agree with Wayne that you're fine if you open 1 and pard responds 1NT since some support is certain.

.. neilkaz ..

Neil, the problem is not with the playing strength, that is fine. The problem occurs when partner thinks you have the values for a reverse which you promised and doubles a high level opponents contract. Or will you double cross her and pull her penalty doubles?

I probably pull fewer penalty doubles than most players so let me consider how I feel when I've reversed on the given distribution and the partner doubles the opp's high level contract.

Well...I don't feel bad at all since I have two aces that I can expect to score on defence. I'd certainly feel better if I had kings with those aces instead of queens, but lets consider what has to occur for the opps to bid to a high level contract and for partner to double it.

Most likely for that to occur, the opps also have great distribution so what is partner doubling on? Likely a good holding in their trump suit and/or ace(s) of her own.

When both sides have great distribution neither partner nor I can expect to cash more than 1 trick (if that) in a side suit on defence anyhow if the opps have bid to a high level contract (assuming that they are sober).

.. neilkaz ..
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#19 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-June-29, 08:48

The thread started as "what do you open with 6511 with six cards in the ranking suit" and has mostly morphed into hands with strictly six clubs.

Personally with:

+ I will always open 1 unless the suit quality tells me not to.

+ or + I will usually open the minor, but I have had good results opening the major in 3rd seat if slam looks doubtful.

With the other combos, I might open the higher ranking suit a bit more often.
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#20 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-June-29, 09:02

BTW opening 1 with 6-6 is awesome. I only did it twice and I both times got a great result (but arguably once not really as a consequence of my 1st round choice).
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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