[bluecalm]

Question for people who has a lot of experience in given bidding systems (played it for at least a year extensively). What are the weakest part of those systems, what else you don't like about them ?

i will start with polish club (I play it all my life with various people as it's standard here).

1) It's very passive; you open 1♣ very often which isn't exactly preemptive and worse yet partner can't make weakish 1/1 response (cause they are GF opposite strong version of 1♣) so you basically have to bid 1♦ with every hand in 0-7 range and with most in 8-11 range which don't have 4M or are not suitable for 1NT. This allows opponents a free run in competition and it's very easy for them to estimate combined assets of their hands;

2) 12-17hcp range for 1♦/♥/♠ openers is really clumsy. You still need to differ between "weak" and "strong" range in almost all bidding sequencies which doesn't allow you to jump to game fast and do force you to continue bidding with marginal values (say if i goes 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♣ you don't want to pass any 9 and 8/7+ doesn't make you feel good either).
Even people who play 11-22 openers with Gazilli are in better situation because if they don't bid Gazilli they have maximum of 16hcp; I feel 12-17 range is taking the worse from both worlds (limited and wide range openers).

3)If you are dealt strong hands with 6+♦ you are basically screwed cause those are unbiddable in the system. Fortunately those hands are rare and you can get away by bidding them like strong NT.

4)2♣ opener which is 11-14 with 5+♣ (5-4M or 6+) is pathetic; I guess I don't need any arguments for that. It's awful. Some young polish players started playing 2♣ as majors but then the system after 1♣ opener is not playable because in 1♣ - 1♠ you lack forcing bid with ♣; they just hope it won't come up. At MP's it's probably reasonable.

5)
Not really part of the system but in Poland it's standard to play 2♦ as multi and 2♥/♠ as 2 suiters (older players play 2♦ Wilkosz). I hate multi. You can't preempt effectively after it (and if you do you tell opponents a lot about yoru distribution in other major) and it's just too easy to bid after it. I don't see real gains from 2suiters either. 2nd suit is not known so preempting is again not an option and it makes very easy for them if they end up declaring.

6)2NT - minors; again standard here. This way bidding strong balanced hands is very awkward because for example:

1♣ - 1♦
1NT is 18-21 (3point range)

and 1♣ - 1♠ - 2NT is 18+ which makes it very difficult for responder to make decisions with say 11hcp. It's even worse in comp, fortunately they usually don't bid too much if we get one of those 18+ balanced hands.

7)Not forcing 1NT;
1♠ - 1NT = not forcing, 7-11; it's so bad, we often miss partscores with trumps 6-3 or are playing in 1NT having stiff to xxx somewhere. People here are like : "a MP's it pays off to play in 1NT". Fortunately most of my partners understand need for forcing 1NT but still non forcing approach is standard and part of the system.

8)I think polish 1♣ is much worse in comp than say precision 1♣. Common argument is that it should be better because opps can't jump with anything because we are often 12-14bal and they are preempting themselves. I guess people who says so never played polish club or precision. Jumping with everything just fail regardless but if they have reasonable preempt you are in much more difficult situation after polish 1♣ because you still have to worry about stopping in partscore every time and can't bid suits naturally at 3 level without 12+hcp.

That being said there are a lot of good things about polish ♣ but this thread is about bad parts. Share yours

[whereagles]

mine is perfect (lol), except for pard's insistance in catering for weak 54 majors after 1NT, which sort of screw up the 1NT sequences.

[Free]

MOSCITO as of 2005 with some modifications

- 1♣ opener = 15+HCP any: it's weak, but it's ok. You have a lot of semipositives, so better use a non-traditional response scheme with 1♠ DN and 1♦ GF. Sometimes your opps don't find their 24 point game!

- 1♦/♥ = 9-14, 4+♥/♠, unbalanced, may have longer m: very agressive, MAFIA style, quick in quick out, easy rebids with 4M-5m and 5M-4m (immediately clear - it used to be different), possibility to bid 'natural' (in transfer) to reach games, possibility to use full relays for slam investigation. Biggest drawback is the competitive auctions, in which case it's sometimes impossible to tell if opener has 4 or 5 card M.

- 1♠ = 9-14, 4+♦, unbalanced, may have longer ♣: this is one of my favorites because the hand is very well described and you preempted an entire level from opps. Also you can easily preempt if you hold both minors. Intervention is not a big issue as you're usually looking for 3NT or some minor suit contract.

- 1NT = 11+-14 (semi) balanced, 5M is allowed: this is a necessary 'evil' of the system to make our 1-level openings unbalanced. You'll have to open this V, so you might get hammered from time to time. On the other hand, a weak NT is fun, creates action, fast arrival,... In the end I don't think it's a loser.

- 2♣ = 9-14, 6+♣, 0-3♦: better than a standard precision 2♣ opener, but you can still lose a 4-4M fit or end up too high. The preemptive value of this opening is higher than natural systems, as is our possibility to preempt even further as responder.

- 2♦ and higher are free. In Paul Marston's version these are not free, but I don't like his solution.

- 3rd & 4th seat system: because we open light in 1st & 2nd seat, you need more conservative openings in 3&4. Transfer openings are no longer useful. Basically you need to learn a 2nd system, or you'll play something very basic with a 17+ strong ♣ (so you can still have some minimum GF as responder).

In short, the disadvantages:
- strong ♣ openers can be a bitch if opps are NV
- 1♦/♥ openings can be a bitch if opps intervene
- weak NT also when V will go for a number sometimes
- 2♣ opening can miss 4-4M fits
- you need a system for 3rd & 4th seat
- you have to alert and explain pretty much every bid you make

All things considered it's imo a very good system if your opps are quiet, and it's an acceptable system if they intervene.

[spotlight7]

Hi:

I play a lot of systems, however, a Precision based Big Club is what I prefer.

Weakness Competition over 1C* is a problem, but 1C* showing 16+ helps a lot

The alledged weakness of the 1D opening showing 2+ is vastly over rated.

The 2C opeing shows 6+ so that opening is not a weakness.

Many of the supposed problems have been cured by using better replies to the openings.

It is hardly anything like Precision currently except for mostly 5 card majors
and 1C* forcing.

Many problems have been solved by changing the meanings of the bids.

1NT=14-16 in 1st/2nd seats(15-17 in 3rd/4th seat)

I open most 10 counts which has some drawbacks but many more advantages.

1C-1D neg. higher bids are all GF, 1H=5+S or 11+NT, 1S=hearts 5+, 1NT=clubs, 2C=Ds, 2D=8-11-HCP bal., 2H=4441 any, 2S=5-5 minors, 2NT4441 11+,
3C=all 4405 hands with 5Ds. 3D/3H/3S numeric 0445, 4045 and 4405 hands.

Alvin Roths "Picture Bidding" solved most of the problems of bidding over our NT.

The bidding is still changing, however, most main ideas are already in place.

Regards,
Robert

[awm]

"My System" is strong club with semi-positive to GF direct responses, lots of relays, light openings in the majors and 14-16 notrump. It's pretty highly optimized, but the negatives appear to be:

(1) 2♦ opening is used for constructive purposes and not available as a preempt.
(2) Sometimes we get in trouble after 1♦ opening when we have a 5-4 or 4-4 minor fit because the opening is not informative about which minor is held.
(3) There's an awful lot to remember and messing it up is potentially costly.

I'm not very concerned about interference after the strong club; our 1♣ starts at 16 (17 if balanced) which is pretty sound and our methods for dealing with interference (involving a lot of transfers) are quite good. Opponents get into trouble more often than not.

In principle our 2♣ and 2♦ openings (both intermediate with 6+ in the bid suit) can cause us to miss a 4-4 major fit, but in practice we do extremely well when these openings come up and I don't see a real issue with it.

[Tomi2]

bluecalm, on May 27 2010, 09:05 AM, said:

Question for people who has a lot of experience in given bidding systems (played it for at least a year extensively). What are the weakest part of those systems, what else you don't like about them ?

i will start with polish club (I play it all my life with various people as it's standard here).

1) It's very passive; you open 1♣ very often which isn't exactly preemptive and worse yet partner can't make weakish 1/1 response (cause they are GF opposite strong version of 1♣) so you basically have to bid 1♦ with every hand in 0-7 range and with most in 8-11 range which don't have 4M or are not suitable for 1NT. This allows opponents a free run in competition and it's very easy for them to estimate combined assets of their hands;

2) 12-17hcp range for 1♦/♥/♠ openers is really clumsy. You still need to differ between "weak" and "strong" range in almost all bidding sequencies which doesn't allow you to jump to game fast and do force you to continue bidding with marginal values (say if i goes 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♣ you don't want to pass any 9 and 8/7+ doesn't make you feel good either).
Even people who play 11-22 openers with Gazilli are in better situation because if they don't bid Gazilli they have maximum of 16hcp; I feel 12-17 range is taking the worse from both worlds (limited and wide range openers).

3)If you are dealt strong hands with 6+♦ you are basically screwed cause those are unbiddable in the system. Fortunately those hands are rare and you can get away by bidding them like strong NT.

4)2♣ opener which is 11-14 with 5+♣ (5-4M or 6+) is pathetic; I guess I don't need any arguments for that. It's awful. Some young polish players started playing 2♣ as majors but then the system after 1♣ opener is not playable because in 1♣ - 1♠ you lack forcing bid with ♣; they just hope it won't come up. At MP's it's probably reasonable.

5)
Not really part of the system but in Poland it's standard to play 2♦ as multi and 2♥/♠ as 2 suiters (older players play 2♦ Wilkosz). I hate multi. You can't preempt effectively after it (and if you do you tell opponents a lot about yoru distribution in other major) and it's just too easy to bid after it. I don't see real gains from 2suiters either. 2nd suit is not known so preempting is again not an option and it makes very easy for them if they end up declaring.

6)2NT - minors; again standard here. This way bidding strong balanced hands is very awkward because for example:

1♣ - 1♦
1NT is 18-21 (3point range)

and 1♣ - 1♠ - 2NT is 18+ which makes it very difficult for responder to make decisions with say 11hcp. It's even worse in comp, fortunately they usually don't bid too much if we get one of those 18+ balanced hands.

7)Not forcing 1NT;
1♠ - 1NT = not forcing, 7-11; it's so bad, we often miss partscores with trumps 6-3 or are playing in 1NT having stiff to xxx somewhere. People here are like : "a MP's it pays off to play in 1NT". Fortunately most of my partners understand need for forcing 1NT but still non forcing approach is standard and part of the system.

8)I think polish 1♣ is much worse in comp than say precision 1♣. Common argument is that it should be better because opps can't jump with anything because we are often 12-14bal and they are preempting themselves. I guess people who says so never played polish club or precision. Jumping with everything just fail regardless but if they have reasonable preempt you are in much more difficult situation after polish 1♣ because you still have to worry about stopping in partscore every time and can't bid suits naturally at 3 level without 12+hcp.

That being said there are a lot of good things about polish ♣ but this thread is about bad parts. Share yours

nice thread about polish club,
my solution would be: chance some minor parts about the system , let the good ones in and give it a new name, here is my "Prussian Club":

1) make the 1NT Rebid a bit more wide ranging (again)- its nonforcing against the weak variant, GF against the strong and with medium Hands partner can bid 2NT allowing you to stop in 3 clubs.
the 1D negative has lots of advantages, like beeing able to force to game or bid game after a positive start...

2) include Forcing NT and gazilli, you will be able to show your hands now very precisely...
1M-1NT-3m is now invitational only on 5-5 etc. in natural systems you still need this as a force

3) open 1D on stronger hands than 18 and use the 2NT rebid as forcing for one round (since you cant be bal and strong). So with maximum for 1D opener you can rebid 2NT and then bid a game, with medium hands you can sign off in 3D

4)play 2Clubs as 6+clubs 10-14. There you can use transfers, since you dont have to look for 4 card majors anymore. Transfers give you one free bid, so you can bid nonforcing and forcing with one suit in the same bid etc.
knowing about 6 clubs and no major makes it for PD easier to preempt to 4clubs or 3NT

5) play wilkosz when allowend and weak twos

6)be happy that you dont preempt yourself with strong hand. 2NT Strong is a very difficult start in natural systems.
Add a relay after 1Cl-1M-2NT... 3cl asks about openershad type and shows interest in more, either finding a fit or more hcp, while a direct raise to 3NT is total bust for the 1M response


8)add transfers in competition, to be able to show invitational+hands and differ between balanced hands with 5 in a major and real onesuiters etc...

and.. 7) add forcing NT and Gazilli

9) reverse 1Cl-2Di and 1CL-1Di-1M-2Di and 1Cl-2NT (now forcing) back to invitational... one bid with weak hands, slow bidding with strong hands, like it was back in 2000

[kenrexford]

I hate having spades and diamonds.

[Fluffy]

I hate the 2NT opening so much, I tried to switch to opening 1♣ then 2NT being a different range than 1♦ then 2NT but then, the 2NT rebid becomes the problem since you know nothing about opener's hand and are stuck alone in the dark again.

I hate my 2♦ weak with both majors, we use it very conservativelly since it puts us away from the field, and it preempts nobody, you have both majors, what is the need to preempt? its not a major's race any more.

[Gerben42]

Playing Fantunes, a soft spot is certainly intermediate (2-level opening) hands with both majors.

If you open them on the 2-level you might miss the best spot in the other major.
If you open them on the 1-level, your 1-level openers are shaded.
Finally, if you pass, you might miss something altogether.

Still, I guess a combination of pass and 1M is the best solution, still ain't great though.

[fromageGB]

I hate partner opening a 15-17 1NT when I have 7/8 and a 4 card major. I am not strong enough to use stayman as you need that to be invitational, so we play in 1NT. The rest of the room (this is UK) bids 1m 1M 2M and plays in the 4/4 major fit.

(So we abandoned that and play 1NT 15/16. Now there is no point in invitational Stayman so 1NT 2♣ something 2NT is to play. So we can play in 2M too. [ 17 is handled with 1♣ T-walsh and a transfer break to 1NT if no fit.])

[awm]

Gerben42, on May 27 2010, 04:06 PM, said:

Playing Fantunes, a soft spot is certainly intermediate (2-level opening) hands with both majors.

If you open them on the 2-level you might miss the best spot in the other major.
If you open them on the 1-level, your 1-level openers are shaded.
Finally, if you pass, you might miss something altogether.

Still, I guess a combination of pass and 1M is the best solution, still ain't great though.

Have you considered playing a weaker 1♣ opening? It seems you could use 1♣ as natural or balanced, forcing but not necessarily stronger than 11 or so. Then you would have:

2♣ is freed up, and can be used to show the intermediate hand with both majors (2♦ asks).
You could play strong notrump if you want (at least at some colors) with the weak notrump bidding 1♣.

[mike777]

Playing a somewhat light opening 2/1 with Walsh, full Bergen and where after a 2/1 game force opener's rebid will not show extras leaves a system hole on some hands with an invitational hand with a long minor. There are partial fixes.

Semi-Forcing 1nt becomes a junkyard full of lots of hand types. Jump rebid in minors, esp, are a bit of a headache. Get used to opening alot of offshape 1nt and mexican 2d(nt) hands.

One always needs to assume pard has opened on junk and tread lightly, not push too much on possible slam hands. So far this seems more an issue in theory than in practice.

One needs to be more careful compared with sounder styles with penalty doubles again because opener will have junk, often.

Also for us nonexpert players you get to alot of aggressive games.....play them well.

-----------------



given all of the above......I beat msc in bw alot........

[the hog]

i will start with polish club (I play it all my life with various people as it's standard here).

1) It's very passive; you open 1♣ very often which isn't exactly preemptive and worse yet partner can't make weakish 1/1 response (cause they are GF opposite strong version of 1♣) so you basically have to bid 1♦ with every hand in 0-7 range and with most in 8-11 range which don't have 4M or are not suitable for 1NT. This allows opponents a free run in competition and it's very easy for them to estimate combined assets of their hands;

So, play weak js into 2M over 1C

2) 12-17hcp range for 1♦/♥/♠ openers is really clumsy. You still need to differ between "weak" and "strong" range in almost all bidding sequencies which doesn't allow you to jump to game fast and do force you to continue bidding with marginal values (say if i goes 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♣ you don't want to pass any 9 and 8/7+ doesn't make you feel good either).
Even people who play 11-22 openers with Gazilli are in better situation because if they don't bid Gazilli they have maximum of 16hcp; I feel 12-17 range is taking the worse from both worlds (limited and wide range openers).

You think a 12-22 range in 2/1 is any better. 12-17 is easily manageable.

3)If you are dealt strong hands with 6+♦ you are basically screwed cause those are unbiddable in the system. Fortunately those hands are rare and you can get away by bidding them like strong NT.

Wrong! There are a number of ways of handling these. Idzdebski uses modified Odwrotka where the 2D bid shows EITHER support OR a strong D hand. Further there have been suggestions to increase the range of the 1D opening, or you could do what Matula proposes.

4)2♣ opener which is 11-14 with 5+♣ (5-4M or 6+) is pathetic; I guess I don't need any arguments for that. It's awful. Some young polish players started playing 2♣ as majors but then the system after 1♣ opener is not playable because in 1♣ - 1♠ you lack forcing bid with ♣; they just hope it won't come up. At MP's it's probably reasonable.

Why is it pathetic? If you think it is pathetic, play the Strefa variant instead.
5)
Not really part of the system but in Poland it's standard to play 2♦ as multi and 2♥/♠ as 2 suiters (older players play 2♦ Wilkosz). I hate multi. You can't preempt effectively after it (and if you do you tell opponents a lot about yoru distribution in other major) and it's just too easy to bid after it. I don't see real gains from 2suiters either. 2nd suit is not known so preempting is again not an option and it makes very easy for them if they end up declaring.

Multi and Wilkosz re not necessarily part of Polish C. You could play wheatever 2 openings you wish. Personally I like Wilkosz and a 2H opening to show a weak 2 in either Major. If this is not allowed, the Multi is a fine opening.
6)2NT - minors; again standard here. This way bidding strong balanced hands is very awkward because for example:

1♣ - 1♦
1NT is 18-21 (3point range)

and 1♣ - 1♠ - 2NT is 18+ which makes it very difficult for responder to make decisions with say 11hcp. It's even worse in comp, fortunately they usually don't bid too much if we get one of those 18+ balanced hands.

I suggest you look at Matula's notes. Remember that the 2NT bid denies 3 card support for responder. I have never had problems with these sequences.
7)Not forcing 1NT;
1♠ - 1NT = not forcing, 7-11; it's so bad, we often miss partscores with trumps 6-3 or are playing in 1NT having stiff to xxx somewhere. People here are like : "a MP's it pays off to play in 1NT". Fortunately most of my partners understand need for forcing 1NT but still non forcing approach is standard and part of the system.

So, play it as forcing if you don't like a nf NT response. Some Polish players do play it as forcing.
8)I think polish 1♣ is much worse in comp than say precision 1♣. Common argument is that it should be better because opps can't jump with anything because we are often 12-14bal and they are preempting themselves. I guess people who says so never played polish club or precision. Jumping with everything just fail regardless but if they have reasonable preempt you are in much more difficult situation after polish 1♣ because you still have to worry about stopping in partscore every time and can't bid suits naturally at 3 level without 12+hcp.

Disagree. Often the opps pre empt thmeselves.
snipped

You are making a mistake when you say "this is part of the system". What system? WJ? Polish Club? Strefa? If PC then which version? There are as many versions as there are flavours of 2/1. Some play a 2/1 as gf, some play it as a gf ONLY if 2m is not rebid. Some play a forcing NT response, others do not. Some play 5 card D opening, others play 4 etc etc.

[cloa513]

I think the OP is only saying there are weaknesses in the basic Polish Club system not complaining that there aren't gadgets to overcame those weaknesses. There may be really good solutions but that's not the argument.

[blackshoe]

Heh. Every system has holes. Berkowitz and Manley (Precision Today) described Standard American (and, I think, 2/1 as well) as "Swiss Cheese".

[cloa513]

Exactly his subject heading.

[helene_t]

Love Tomi2's improvements of Polish club. Polish club is already quite a good system but it could be a lot better. Especially transfers if competition after our 1♣ opening ought to be mandatory.

And with the 5♣4M hands and 11-14 points you can usually better open 1♣ than 2♣, although you do run the risk of playing in a 5-1 fit if p makes a negative freebid (or a transfer in competition) into your singleton major. Maybe open 1♦ with (41)35 like the "natural 1♦" precision players do nowadays.

As for the system I usually play (Standard American), I think the minor suit openings suck in competition and if you don't play T-Walsh, 1♣ sucks in constructive bidding also. Also many 18+ hands can't be described accurately but OK playing Gazilli would help I suppose.

I have designed a lot of systems myself and they all turned out to suck much more than the better standard systems so I guess it's just not so easy to design a good system.

[the hog]

cloa513, on May 28 2010, 01:19 PM, said:

I think the OP is only saying there are weaknesses in the basic Polish Club system not complaining that there aren't gadgets to overcame those weaknesses. There may be really good solutions but that's not the argument.

Cloa, the point is there is no basic Polish Club, just as there is no basic 2/1. There may be popular variants in one club or one district, but go to another one and they have their own flavour. Look at the number of different ways Odworotka is played for example.

Quote helene: Maybe open 1♦ with (41)35 like the "natural 1♦" precision players do nowadays."

This is a very bad idea, Helene. The 1D opening is a big winner in PC.

[Free]

Hehe I knew Hog would crush that post on PC