[Chamaco]

Hi all !

Yesterday I was lucky enough to be awake by the time Luis was doing his BIL clas on slam bidding, and it was a great one ! (ty again Luis- and Rado too ).

So here is the q.
I held the following hand:

♠Kxxx
♥xx
♦AKQJxx
♣x

Partner opens 1♠ and i decide to bid 2♦ rather than splintering or using Jacoby 2NT (actually there were very useful comments also on this kind of choice but it is not the subject of this post).

1♠:2♦
2NT:3♠
4♣:4♦
4♥:?

Both 4C and 4D are mixed cuebids.

The question here is the meaning of the 4H bid.
Since the class was a group class, there was not the chance to discuss this better so I still have doubts on this, hence I post them here...

Basically, it was said in the class that after 4H I should take over and bid 4NT RKCB, because H shows a H stopper.

I objected that, since we have shown control inn the minors and miss only H control, AND opener still shows slam interest, it sounded to me that 4H was more ASKING for H stopper.
If opener had a slam going hand AND H control, he may bid RKCB himself, knowing all suits are stopped.

Due to the collective nature of the class, there was not the time to discuss this more thouroghly, but the reply to this comment was that 4H is similar to "Last Train" here, opener is still undecided. (This Last train reference was made very quickly in private chat, since we needed to move on to the following board; this means I may have misunderstod some part of this explanation because of english language).

Now, my doubt after the "Last train" point is that Last Train does not deny NOR promise anything in the Last Train suit (hearts here): so if 4H shows a hand that wants to keep the bidding open but lacks something, I still do not know whether he has a H control. (The "Lackwood" convention would help here).

And If I do not know whether he has a H control, I cannot bid RKCB.


Thanks again to all, these BIL lessons are great.

[luke warm]

i would take 4H as last train and bid 4S... however, i don't know what luis was teaching, it's possible he doesn't use last train here

[the hog]

I would also take 4H as Last Train, but this is beyond a Bil class. You are totally right Mauro, this is a hand for Lackwood. But seriously in Bil??

Certainly I would bid 2D - 3S rather than splinter.
I agree, I think the H bid here sopunds more like it is asking for control rather than showing one.

[whereagles]

The way I see it, and let me stress this is only my opinion, the 4H cue in principle asks for a heart stop, but can also be done with a hand that wants responder, who's still unlimited, to take charge. In the latter case, opener will have heart control.

Responder obviously will assume no heart control, and bid accordingly. If it goes

... 4D
4H 4S

then opener ended up having to bid RKCB, but at least he'd have given responder a chance to do it himself. It could go on like this:

AQxxx Axx xx Axx

Kxxx xx AKQJxx x

... 4D
4H 4S
4NT 5H
5NT 7S

4D: diam control
4H: hand unfit for asking aces
4S: seems hearts are wide open
4NT: not really
5NT: any kings?
7S: no.. but I got something which will do just as well

Of course this reasoning could be all wrong since responder, after 4C, might have bid RKCB right away if he had diam+heart control LOL. Still, the principle that both opener and responder should be able to ask RKCB whenever their hand is fit for doing it, is a sound one.

[bearmum]

luke warm, on Jul 29 2004, 10:58 PM, said:

i would take 4H as last train and bid 4S... however, i don't know what luis was teaching, it's possible he doesn't use last train here

Maybe I'm missing something here ---- in BIL would luis be teaching last train OR Lackwood

AND have BIL members been taught Jac 2NT and/or splinters?

[Chamaco]

bearmum, on Jul 29 2004, 11:14 AM, said:

Maybe I'm missing something here   ---- in BIL would luis be teaching last train OR Lackwood 

AND have BIL members been taught Jac 2NT and/or splinters?

Sorry, probably my post was chaotic

(and yes, most BIL players do play splinters and J2NT).

Lat Train and Lackwood are not taught in the BIL, as far as I know.
Last train was mentioned to me privately by Luis, just to make quickly a point that 4H may be a tempo bid, a sort of squezze cuebid (we know already of the minors control, so 4H is a "superfluous cue showing that the hand still has slam interest but misses something)

But squeeze cuebids were dealt with i the BIL (actually one example occurred the hand before this one), so I took 4H for such meaning: not necessarily showing (nor denying for what matters) a H cue, but not enabling me to ask RKCB cos I was unaware of H controls.

So please let's not focus on the Last Train issue but rather on whether or not responder should bid 4NT.

[bearmum]

Chamaco, on Jul 30 2004, 12:24 AM, said:

bearmum, on Jul 29 2004, 11:14 AM, said:

Maybe I'm missing something here   ---- in BIL would luis be teaching last train OR Lackwood 

AND have BIL members been taught Jac 2NT and/or splinters?

Sorry, probably my post was chaotic

(and yes, most BIL players do play splinters and J2NT).

Lat Train and Lackwood are not taught in the BIL, as far as I know.
Last train was mentioned to me privately by Luis, just to make quickly a point that 4H may be a tempo bid, a sort of squezze cuebid (we know already of the minors control, so 4H is a "superfluous cue showing that the hand still has slam interest but misses something)

But squeeze cuebids were dealt with i the BIL (actually one example occurred the hand before this one), so I took 4H for such meaning: not necessarily showing (nor denying for what matters) a H cue, but not enabling me to ask RKCB cos I was unaware of H controls.

So please let's not focus on the Last Train issue but rather on whether or not responder should bid 4NT.

WOW I have rated myself "intermediate" but have never heard of squeeze Q bids -(or last train OR Lackwood for that matter--apart from reading these boards)---- so I guess I ought to downgrade myself to "beginner" if all those are going to be taught in BIL lessons
A Pity the BIL lessons are in a time IMPOSSIBLE for me to attend

[whereagles]

Chamaco, on Jul 29 2004, 12:24 PM, said:

just to make quickly a point that 4H may be a tempo bid, a sort of squezze cuebid (we know already of the minors control, so 4H is a "superfluous cue showing that the hand still has slam interest but misses something)

If 4H merely says: "willing to go to slam", what is responder going to do with xx in hearts?

Perhaps this is better. After 4D,

4H: heart cue, hand unfit for RKCB
4S: no heart control, no slam interest (would have bid 3NT last train before)
4NT: have heart control, good hand for RKCB

[helene_t]

I wonder what 3NT instead of 4♣ would have meant. If it would have been "serious", maybe responder should sign off immediately or at least should do it now, after 4♥. But there is another possibility, namely 4♣ showing a first-round control and 3NT would have showed a hand unfit for a cue, for example because 4♣ would show the ace while 4♦ would (tend to) deny a club control. When you have a singleton, you want to know if partner is cueing the ace or the king.

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Jul 29 2004, 11:48 AM, said:

Perhaps this is better. After 4D,

4H: heart cue, hand unfit for RKCB
4S: no heart control, no slam interest (would have bid 3NT last train before)
4NT: have heart control, good hand for RKCB

Maybe this is what they were trying to make me understand


Two more points about this scheme then:

1) what should opener bid- instead of 4H - with a slam going hand without heart control ?

2) what could be an example hand for 4H = cuebid with a hand unfit for RKCB ?


We know all suits are stopped so what may be a reason for hand unsuitability for RKCB?

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Jul 29 2004, 08:00 AM, said:

Two more points about this scheme then:

I sat in the BIL class by luis for about 40 minutes or so. Let me say that Luis did an EXCELLENT Job. He not only was giving an excellent class with interesting and informative deals, he also explained it in a wondeful way.

Quote

1) what should opener bid- instead of 4H - with a slam going hand without heart control ?

Opener should jump to 5♠ over 4♦. This will paint a perfect picture of slam going hand, but no control in the one, unbid suit. In this case, ♥'s.

Quote

2) what could be an example hand for 4H = cuebid with a hand unfit for RKCB ?  We know all suits are stopped so what may be a reason for hand unsuitability for RKCB?

IF opener is minimial opening, and has little to nothing extra, but does have a ♥ control, he will bid 4♥. Responder should knoiw that if opener had a lot of extra value, he would have taken control with 4NT bid. But since slam would have some play opposite xxxxx Ax xx Axxx (need spades 2-2 with ace onside) and opener surely has more than that, responder would continue with blackwood I think over a 4♥ cue-bid.

A couple of interesting bids exist that were not used here...

1S - 2D
2N - 4D

and

1S - 2D
2N - 4C

In the first case, 4D should show a hand very much like this one, with solid diamond suit and good spade fit, and control in one of the side two suits. (with out control in side suit, a leap to 4S as a "picture bid" would be more appropriate). The jump to 4C here should be splinter and support. But these are issues for anohter day.

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Jul 29 2004, 12:35 PM, said:

Chamaco, on Jul 29 2004, 08:00 AM, said:

Two more points about this scheme then:

I sat in the BIL class by luis for about 40 minutes or so. Let me say that Luis did an EXCELLENT Job. He not only was giving an excellent class with interesting and informative deals, he also explained it in a wondeful way.

Yes, definitely.
His classes are absolutely great

Thanks to all who responded: finally my doubts are cleared now

[whereagles]

Chamaco, on Jul 29 2004, 01:00 PM, said:

1) what should opener bid- instead of 4H - with a slam going hand without heart control ?

2) what could be an example hand for 4H = cuebid with a hand unfit for RKCB ? We know all suits are stopped so what may be a reason for hand unsuitability for RKCB?

I think I replied to these questions on my 1st post

1) Opener should bid 4S regardless. Remember, opener already had the chance to bid a serious/frivolous/last-train (or whatever you call it) 3NT. Bidding the proposed 5S can also be a solution, but I'd prefer sticking to the 4-level. You never know if hearts are breaking xxx opposite xxx

2) The hand I showed above: AQxxx Axx xx Axx. You don't want to ask aces because you have no clue whether to bid 6 or 7, if the side has 5 keys + queen. Also, with this hand, a reply to RKCB and queen-ask would show your holdings with 200% accuracy As a rule, you ask for keys if you can do something sensible with the information you'll get. With

AQxxx Axx xx Axx

Kxxx xx AKQJxx x

opener won't get anything useful from RKCB, but responder, who has that solid suit, will be able to call 6 or 7 depending on what opener says to RKCB.

But again, this is only my way of treating the subject. The official lecturer, Luis, might have better ideas

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Jul 29 2004, 01:08 PM, said:

1) Opener should bid 4S regardless. Remember, opener already had the chance to bid a serious/frivolous/last-train (or whatever you call it) 3NT.

serious/unserious 3NT was not part of the agreement.

[hrothgar]

Silly question here:

I had always learned that once you start cuebidding, 4NT is not Blackwood, but rather, some other species of artifical ask. (The specific meaning depends on the context)

Curious how many other people share this philosophy...

[whereagles]

Then you have a problem. The one that serious/frivolous 3NT was meant to solve

[inquiry]

hrothgar, on Jul 29 2004, 09:32 AM, said:

Silly question here:

I had always learned that once you start cuebidding, 4NT is not Blackwood, but rather, some other species of artifical ask. (The specific meaning depends on the context)

Curious how many other people share this philosophy...

I use to play that once cue-bidding started, NT was a trump cue-bid.. but with a specific agreement. If you cie-bid in "NT" you showed specifically one of the top three trump honors (AKQ), and if you "bypassed" the NT cue-bid, you showed either two (or 3), or no top trump honor. This "bypass" the cue-bid is of corse alertable. I prefer good/bad 3NT and 4NT as blackwood, however.

Ben

[jtfanclub]

With my regular partners, that would show a partial- Kx, QJx, something like that. He could also have something like Axx or AJx and be trying to decide if we belong in 6S or 6NT. 4S would have shown a complete lack of a heart stop, higher than 4S would show a complete stop. He's asking you if you have a stop, counting the queen as a stop.

With a pickup partner, I hope to never be in that situation.

[paulhar]

I would like to present this thread as evidence that the beginners need their own forum.

[bearmum]

hrothgar, on Jul 30 2004, 02:32 AM, said:

Silly question here:

I had always learned that once you start cuebidding, 4NT is not Blackwood, but rather, some other species of artifical ask.  (The specific meaning depends on the context)

Curious how many other people share this philosophy...

NOW Here is one comment I totally agree with ------- 4NT can just be "I don't have ANYTHING else to Q bid BUT MAYBE you still want to try for slam Pard

(HOPEFULLY one would only force to the 5 level if one was sure that 5 level was safe