[karlson]

♠Ax ♥Jx ♦AJxxxxx ♣Kx

w/w imps
partner deals

4♥-x-p-4♠
p-p-?

[gnasher]

5♥. Two ways to win.

Should this hand have redoubled on the round before, to involve partner in the decision-making?

[kfay]

Pass

[pooltuna]

karlson, on May 26 2010, 03:58 PM, said:

♠Ax ♥Jx ♦AJxxxxx ♣Kx

w/w imps
partner deals

4♥-x-p-4♠
p-p-?

I am inclined to pass and try to beat it with this much defense.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Should this hand have redoubled on the round before, to involve partner in the decision-making?

I like this treatment and I think the answer is yes.

[aguahombre]

gnasher, on May 26 2010, 03:04 PM, said:

5♥.  Two ways to win.

Should this hand have redoubled on the round before, to involve partner in the decision-making?

I vote yes. Partner might double and lead his stiff diamond, or bid 5H with short spade and an 8th heart, or whatever. More than 2 ways to win after redouble.

Having failed to bring partner to the party, I guess 5♥, too.

[rogerclee]

Does redouble set up a force?

[whereagles]

Dbl. No guarantee to make 5♥ and I think they won't make this.

[Fluffy]

I think pass is trully awful bid, all we need is partner having ♥Ak for 10.5 tricks to average those odds in 4 spades undoubled we need like 5 downs?

I think 5♥ is obvious not sure what I am missing.

[aguahombre]

rogerclee, on May 26 2010, 04:03 PM, said:

Does redouble set up a force?

i don't think so. It just invites pard to double with some semblance of extra defense, or to bid 5H with some extra offense. What the redoubler has is his problem.

[kfay]

Yeah I reconsidered pass after I said it, I'm now on board with 5♥.

My bad!!!

[mikeh]

rogerclee, on May 26 2010, 05:03 PM, said:

Does redouble set up a force?

My initial reaction was that it ought to be forcing, but then I looked deeper (I think) into the problem.

One reason for fp's is generally that we allow the person under immediate pressure 4 choices: double, bid, pass, or pass intending to pull. Using standard treatment, the latter is the strongest.

But after a preempt, opener will never have a pass and pull hand. He can't logically pass then override partner's decision to double, intending it as a slam move opposite a partner who has never expressed any interest in slam.

So I think that redouble should offer 3 choices: double with extra defence, in context; bid with extra offence, and pass with a middle of the road preempt.

While I suspect that there will be very few hands on passing out their contract represents a par result, I can easily picture hands on which we simply don't know whether bidding or doubling is best. Either may be (relatively speaking) a disaster and then passing, tho never optimal, may be the wisest choice.

I don't see it that way here: I bid 5♥. Not only might we make it, or find it to be a good save, but maybe, just maybe, the opps will take the push. Then I'll be sure I know what to do (even tho I may be wrong).

[aguahombre]

nice, total analysis, mike

[gnasher]

mikeh, on May 27 2010, 03:56 AM, said:

But after a preempt, opener will never have a pass and pull hand. He can't logically pass then override partner's decision to double, intending it as a slam move opposite a partner who has never expressed any interest in slam.

I don't think that's particularly relevant. The primary purpose of a forcing pass is to help us decide whether to bid a game that we hope to make, or to take a penalty that we know is available. Being able to use pass-and-pull to show a slam try is no more than a useful sideeffect.

The question here is, do we want to be able to say "I don't know what to do, but I know we should do something", or to say "I don't know what to do; maybe we should do nothing."

Regardless, I do agree that this isn't the right hand for redouble - it should show a much more balanced hand, so that partner can sensiby evaluate any side honours or length.

[hanp]

If we redouble, partner's pass would not be forcing imo. However, if for example LHO passes and RHO bids 4S, then our pass would be forcing.

[Trinidad]

gnasher, on May 26 2010, 10:04 PM, said:

5♥.  Two ways to win.

And (important in IMPs) when it does lose, it loses less than what it would win if it wins.

Losing (nothing makes): -100 v -100 = -200 = -5 IMPs.
Winning (one makes): 450 v -100 = +350 = +8 IMPs
Hitting Jackpot (both make): +450 v +420 = 850 = 13 IMPs

Rik

[Fluffy]

Trinidad, on May 27 2010, 08:36 AM, said:

gnasher, on May 26 2010, 10:04 PM, said:

5♥.  Two ways to win.

And (important in IMPs) when it does lose, it loses less than what it would win if it wins.

Losing (nothing makes): -100 v -100 = -200 = -5 IMPs.
Winning (one makes): 450 v -100 = +350 = +8 IMPs
Hitting Jackpot (both make): +450 v +420 = 850 = 13 IMPs

Rik

11 IMPs if they take the push to a losing contract as well

[flytoox]

I will vote for 5H, not sure it will make, it even could be a save.

I think 5H has two ways to win. It may be cold, it may be a good save.

[Free]

If you want to beat this, you might as well Dbl instead of pass. I think the ♦A lead will probably beat it.

But I'm more inclined to bid 5♥ as it's the safest choice.

[kfay]

Free, on May 27 2010, 06:18 AM, said:

If you want to beat this, you might as well Dbl instead of pass. I think the ♦A lead will probably beat it.

But I'm more inclined to bid 5♥ as it's the safest choice.

I was going to double until I realized I wasn't on lead. Then I decided to pass.

Then thinking about it I decided we were pretty good to make 5♥ so I decided pass was wrong.