[ONEferBRID]

I see Karlson is the only one advocating the SINGLE-jump Reverse splinter:

1C          - 1S
3D! ( jump-Reverse splinter ) - 4D ( must be Ht A; denies Ht or Cl Ctrls; A or K )
4NT ( 03 14, etc )        - 5D
5H ( sQ-ask )       - 6C ( sQ -- or extra length-- AND cQ )
7S

Of course let's hope Responder isn't this ( below ):

♠ AKxx
♥ AJxx
♦ x
♣ AKJx

♠ QJTx
♥ xx
♦ Axx
♣ Qxxx

[MFA]

gnasher, on May 20 2010, 10:03 PM, said:

MFA, on May 20 2010, 08:08 PM, said:

I don't like west's 5♣. Apparently he was already in small slam at least, and trying to bid a grand without ever keycarding is filthy stuff.

That might be a reasonable general rule, but I don't think it applies on this hand. West had four of the five keycards, and he could be certain that East's next bid would either show or deny ♦A.

I agree with you about the ♦A, but there is still the ♠Q to find out about.

[jdonn]

It's funny how people always talk about many players who use keycard too much, which is true, but they don't realize there is also a large class of players that doesn't bid keycard enough either. Even if it's not 100% perfect bidding keycard makes things so much simpler! Having a cuebidding auction on a hand like this is not easy to do accurately and sometimes makes finding out the trump situation difficult as well.

[aguahombre]

This thread lost its allure when East started getting blame.

XXXXXX XXX XX QX=small slam.
XXXXXX XXX AX QX=grand. Each depending only on 2-1 spades.

Yet, West got hung up on splintering with his mountain when a simple reverse would uncover extra spade length, sending opener to the races. Even if the reverse found responder with fewer spades, a subsequent jump to 4S by West would describe a hand too-strong for the splinter, and put East in charge.

But, as it is, West can just launch RKC after discovering the spade length --getting around to the club queen in the process if responder has the diamond bullet.

edit: will pay off if responder has a stiff diamond and four baby hearts.

[Winstonm]

ArtK78, on May 20 2010, 10:27 AM, said:

I assume that 4♥ was last train.

East should LOVE his hand when opener bids 4♦. Two extra spades, no wasted values. For this reason, I find East's 5♠ bid over 5♣ to be quite puzzling.

Why did East not bid 5♦ over 5♣? I don't know if that will be sufficient to get the partnership to a grand, but it will keep the wheels moving ahead rather than stopping them. Presumably, West assumed the ♦A was missing and so he signed off at 6♠.

Therefore, the blame, if there is any, is on East, for denying possession of the ♦A. West must terminate all grand slam exploration once East refuses to acknowledge possession of the ♦A.

This is certainly how I understand this auction - I'm sure wrong, as usual.

After 5D, opener will bid 6C, which responder can then "know" that opener would not suggest grand slam without AK of spade, so he can count 6 spade, 3 clubs, 1 heart, one diamond, and two diamond ruffs - 13 tricks.

I can't get my head around the concept of "too strong to splinter".

[aguahombre]

Winstonm, on May 20 2010, 08:29 PM, said:

I can't get my head around the concept of "too strong to splinter".

It involves a theory that bids which take up several levels should have well-defined limits. Others like to show their shape, then bid again to show more. You just have to decide which concept is "partnership" oriented and choose the style you like.

[655321]

Agree East 100%, I would have started with RKCB, but if you don't want to do that with 2 losers in hearts and clubs, I still don't understand bypassing 5♦.

I dislike the suggestion that aquaman has made (twice four times) that West should suppress his spade support and conduct a masterminding auction instead.

This post has been edited by 655321: 2010-May-21, 00:51

[aguahombre]

Now it is starting to make sense to me. When I am attempting to show about a whole Ace better than a splinter would show ---so partner can take over ---and along the way discover information which makes it easy for me to take over, that is called "masterminding".

But if I just splinter, then am uncomfortable when partner declines to move forward and have to make another bid, that is not masterminding.

[cherdanno]

aguahombre, on May 20 2010, 10:06 PM, said:

Now it is starting to make sense to me. When I am attempting to show about a whole Ace better than a splinter would show ---so partner can take over ---and along the way discover information which makes it easy for me to take over, that is called "masterminding".

But if I just splinter, then am uncomfortable when partner declines to move forward and have to make another bid, that is not masterminding.

Huh?
4♥ says "if you have a good splinter, we may have slam". West has a very good splinter (although he certainly does not have an ace extra), so he moves on over 4♥ with keycard.

Anyway, of course you are free to make any agreements you want, but in standard you deny 4-card spade support when you don't raise immediately.

[aguahombre]

I surrender. Didn't know Partner would last train with, say JXXXXX QXX XX QX, making blackwood obvious and eliminating the need to "mastermind".

Also was under the impression that a reverse, followed by JUMP support showed 4 pieces and about 22+ dummy points -- and a direct splinter only showed around 19-21 dummy points, while a reverse, then just bidding the suit showed only 3 card support.

Will have to be content with our antiquated style, which seems to suit us just fine. In fact 3D is the splinter, and 4D just shows a non-serious 4-6 in the rounded suits; so others who have both as splinters can actually use 4D for the bigger splinter and still blame East when the cold grand is missed --since West cannot possibly count 13 tricks without the spade length info.

[655321]

Aquaman, what are you doing? You stated your opinion once (fine), then followed up with a stream of sarcastic posts when people dared to offer contrary opinions. You do realise your original post is still there for people to read, and agree with you if they wish?

Opposite Jxxxxx Qxx xx Qx I notice that you will force to slam, well done, no doubt you will also stay out of slam opposite Jxxxxx Qx Qx xxx.

Unless you have specifically agreed to play the methods you describe then yes, it is the very definition of masterminding to make a non-descriptive bid in order to hear partner's response and make a decision based on that response. But sure, if these are your partnership's agreed methods then the masterminding tag that seems to offend you doesn't apply. Recently in a different thread you made a post boasting that you often redoubled with 4 cards when opponents doubled a transfer/Stayman, yet your wife never did this. I venture to guess that you would indeed (at least whenever East has 6 spades!) bid the way you suggest on this hand, but that your wife would be content to splinter and let you make the decision. Maybe I have misinterpreted your posts, but the impression I am left with is that you are the decision-maker in your partnership.

aguahombre, on May 20 2010, 11:06 PM, said:

But if I just splinter, then am uncomfortable when partner declines to move forward and have to make another bid

I don't think anyone is bidding again as West if East just bids 4♠.

aguahombre, on May 21 2010, 01:00 AM, said:

Will have to be content with our antiquated style, which seems to suit us just fine.

Arrrgh! Why is it so very common that when somebody's pet method is criticised, this is always their comeback? Not to pick on aquaman, it is not just him, and I have no idea if aquaman is regularly representing the US in international competition, or if he regards getting better than 45% in the local duplicate as a triumph, but it doesn't actually matter, even for posters who would be pleased with 45%, it is always 'these methods work very well for me!'

Oh well.

[hanp]

What's your point Numbers? Repeating the same argument over and over again has always worked well for me.

[bluecalm]

Simple case of FPS imo (fancy play syndrome for people not familiar with that).
E should have bid RKC and, then ask for kings and bid 7♠.
4♥ doesn't make any sense. Splinter bidder described his hand already and E has perfect hand.

Quote

East is the guy who can count 13 tricks here, will be hard without blackwood though. Don't think he is worth 4NT with 2 tiny hearts.

Last thing we should worry about is lack of stopper in unbid suit after strong hand splinters, xx is actually pretty good holding on this auction.

Quote

Opener would consider himself too strong for a splinter and start with a reverse

Isn't it standard to bid splinters with hands which make playable slams opposite perfect minimum ? Seems like this hand fits perfectly.

Quote

RKC with xx in hearts? If opener lacks the ♥A we are open to two losers there. Isn't this sort of thing exactly what last train is for?

No. Last train is convention which purpose is to say : "Partner, I don't know if we have enough values for slam, I make this one last try instead of signing off".
Here E has enough information already. How do you think we can check for ♥ stopper after 4♥ bid anyway ? What do you plan to do if W signs off in 4♠ ? If you bid on partner will be convinced you have ♥ stopper (and rightly so).

Quote

Right, but Kx or Kxx or KJx all are subject to two losers. Do you bid 50-50 slams?

Bad logic here. If I am facing a range of hands and most of them make 100% slam (or grand). Some of them 90% slam and tiny minority of them 50% slam (and actually opposite KJx of hearts it's much more than 50%, DUCY ?) I am of course bidding it.

E is 100% to blame. I would also say it's very simple mistake. I can't imagine any good player defending E's bidding.

[hanp]

bluecalm, on May 21 2010, 02:33 AM, said:

Isn't it standard to bid splinters with hands which make playable slams opposite perfect minimum ?

No I don't think so.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Isn't it standard to bid splinters with hands which make playable slams opposite perfect minimum ?

No I don't think so.

It was rhetoric question.
If we bid splinter we are announcing :
-good values for game
-shortness
-4+ trumps

Those enough makes playable slams opposite perfect minimums.
It's quite important not to make splinters on too strong hands (like 18count opposite 1♠ opener). Here though it's not a problem as 1/1 response is 6+ or even weaker) and we are limited already opening 1♣.

[pooltuna]

hanp, on May 21 2010, 02:30 AM, said:

What's your point Numbers? Repeating the same argument over and over again has always worked well for me.

so if they don't get it you ♣ them! and then you ♣♣ them some more !

[Phil]

My eyes must be going bad. Have at least two posters suggested that WEST initiate key card over 4D?

(I was West but I'm not tyring to defend my position, I posted this to generate an interesting discussion).

[billw55]

bluecalm, on May 21 2010, 02:33 AM, said:

Quote

RKC with xx in hearts? If opener lacks the ♥A we are open to two losers there. Isn't this sort of thing exactly what last train is for?

No. Last train is convention which purpose is to say : "Partner, I don't know if we have enough values for slam, I make this one last try instead of signing off".

Which is what I thought east should be saying here. He knows west is big, but not that big. Maybe I am too wimpy.

Quote

Here E has enough information already. How do you think we can check for ♥ stopper after 4♥ bid anyway ?

5♣ - 5♦ - 5♥. Stopper. Oops east didn't actually bid 5♦.

Quote

What do you plan to do if W signs off in 4♠ ?

Pass. See above about wimpy.

Quote

Bad logic here ...

yeah on second though I agree. There are extra chances there. But again, opener has more than he has so far shown. In particular he could easily still splinter without the ♣K, which will not be discovered by RKC.

Quote

E is 100% to blame. I would also say it's very simple mistake.

Agree again. OK, you think east bidding RKC is 100%. But he still could give himself a chance with the painfully obvious 5♦.

[cherdanno]

Phil, on May 21 2010, 09:56 AM, said:

My eyes must be going bad. Have at least two posters suggested that WEST initiate key card over 4D?

No West bid 4D himself, so he can't bid keycard over that.
But yes I think East should bid keycard over 4D. If he bids 4H, then I think West should bid keycard over that, as West knows he is bidding a small slam and finding a grand is much easier if you check for keycards first. (In fact it would be obvious to bid the grand after 4D-4H-4N-5C-5D-5N-6C.)