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bridge problem from romania

#1 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-May-15, 08:44

This is a hand I found in a Romanian bridge book from 1995.

AQ8
AK42
A
AQ953

T97543
QJ8
72
K6

N opens at unfavourable 1♣ promising 17 points

1♣-3♦-3♠-p
4♦-p-4♠-p
6♠-p-p-p

3♠ was GF 4♦ was forcing, almost always with fit.

West leads a diamond.
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#2 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-May-15, 09:01

♣ to the K and ♠ to the Q ?

It wins with spades 2-2; Kxx - x and even with spades 4-0.
I guess that if it was that simple it wouldn't make this forum though.
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#3 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2010-May-15, 09:11

If memory serves (it may not) this is similar to a hand in one of Rosenkranz's books, in which the correct play at trick two is the ♠A. This loses (I think) only when the spades are not 2-2, the shortage is on declarer's left, and an honor does not fall.
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#4 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2010-May-15, 09:40

I think finessing the ♠Q is better as you don't lose against Kxx in West.

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#5 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-May-15, 09:40

If diamonds are 3=7, a 4=0 spade break is, a priori, as likely as singleton king offside. Hence cashing ♠A isn't necessarily better than a first-round spade finesse.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#6 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-May-15, 09:42

Hanoi5, on May 15 2010, 04:40 PM, said:

I think finessing the ♠Q is better as you don't lose against Kxx in West.

Neither line loses to ♠Kxx in West. After ♠A, dropping the jack, you cross to hand, ruff a diamond, and lead a trump from dummy.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#7 User is offline   Little Kid 

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Posted 2010-May-15, 11:04

♠ to the A and then another ♠ to dummy seems like the best line intuitively.
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#8 User is offline   cherdanno 

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Posted 2010-May-15, 11:06

gnasher, on May 15 2010, 10:42 AM, said:

Hanoi5, on May 15 2010, 04:40 PM, said:

I think finessing the ♠Q is better as you don't lose against Kxx in West.

Neither line loses to ♠Kxx in West. After ♠A, dropping the jack, you cross to hand, ruff a diamond, and lead a trump from dummy.

But cashing ♠A loses to ♠KJx with West.
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#9 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2010-May-15, 13:19

Yeah I meant KJx

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#10 User is offline   RichMor 

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Posted 2010-May-17, 07:12

How about the Spade Q at trick 2?

This keeps control and avoids the risk of crossing to the closed hand, losing a Spade finesse, and suffering a ruff.

RichM
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#11 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-May-17, 07:24

RichMor, on May 17 2010, 02:12 PM, said:

How about the Spade Q at trick 2?

This keeps control and avoids the risk of crossing to the closed hand, losing a Spade finesse, and suffering a ruff.

RichM

That loses to KJx on the left, KJxx on the left, or singleton K in either hand. It only gains over the spade finesse when RHO has 2065/2056 with ♠Kx.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#12 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-May-17, 07:59

This hand is not only about trumps...

♠A, and if no honour falls I continue with 3 rounds of ♣ trying to discard my ♦.
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#13 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2010-May-17, 08:32

Free, on May 17 2010, 08:59 AM, said:

This hand is not only about trumps...

♠A, and if no honour falls I continue with 3 rounds of ♣ trying to discard my ♦.

Interesting problem. If LHO has KJx and pops King, he then can force a ruff in dummy and promote his Jack.

If everyone follows to the spade, with no honor, then the question is percentages. Clubs need to be 3-3 OR the person with two clubs only needs to have started with the Kx in trumps.
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#14 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-May-17, 08:50

Free, on May 17 2010, 02:59 PM, said:

This hand is not only about trumps...

♠A, and if no honour falls I continue with 3 rounds of ♣ trying to discard my ♦.

Compared with the spade finesse, that gains when LHO has ♠K singleton, but loses when he has Jx and a doubleton club, or a spade void.

Given that singleton king is as likely as a void, that doesn't sound much of a bargain to me.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#15 User is offline   RichMor 

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Posted 2010-May-17, 09:50

gnasher, on May 17 2010, 08:24 AM, said:

RichMor, on May 17 2010, 02:12 PM, said:

How about the Spade Q at trick 2?

This keeps control and avoids the risk of crossing to the closed hand, losing a Spade finesse, and suffering a ruff.

RichM

That loses to KJx on the left, KJxx on the left, or singleton K in either hand. It only gains over the spade finesse when RHO has 2065/2056 with ♠Kx.

Right.

I need to clean my glasses before I look at play problems. Thought South had the Spade J.

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#16 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2010-May-17, 10:06

Interesting ..

It looks like you are always down when righty holds ♠KJx(x). That is 3 of 16 possible spade layouts. ♠A and another from hand looks like it wins against all 13 other layouts. So how could this be improved on?
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#17 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-May-17, 10:21

billw55, on May 17 2010, 05:06 PM, said:

Interesting ..

It looks like you are always down when righty holds ♠KJx(x). That is 3 of 16 possible spade layouts. ♠A and another from hand looks like it wins against all 13 other layouts. So how could this be improved on?

As Cherdano pointed out two days ago, that line loses to KJx onside, because LHO can win ♠K and force dummy. It also loses to a spade void on the right.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#18 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2010-May-17, 10:39

gnasher, on May 17 2010, 11:21 AM, said:

As Cherdano pointed out two days ago, that line loses to KJx onside, because LHO can win ♠K and force dummy. It also loses to a spade void on the right.

ah, clever, I missed that post. Thanks ;)

... hmmm ...

So back to low to the Q first then cash the A? That gains v. KJx(x) and loses to bare K on the right, which seems like a good trade.
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#19 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2010-May-17, 11:44

gnasher, on May 17 2010, 07:50 AM, said:

Free, on May 17 2010, 02:59 PM, said:

This hand is not only about trumps...

♠A, and if no honour falls I continue with 3 rounds of ♣ trying to discard my ♦.

Compared with the spade finesse, that gains when LHO has ♠K singleton, but loses when he has Jx and a doubleton club, or a spade void.

Given that singleton king is as likely as a void, that doesn't sound much of a bargain to me.

Yes, but a finesse of the 8 loses whenever RHO has any singleton honor, which is twice as likely as a void (using your numbers, not mine). I think the best line is to cash the ace of trump. If an honor falls, you are home. If not, then 3 rounds of clubs pitching the diamond. You win if clubs are 3-3, or if the person with short clubs has the Kx of spades originally, or if RHO has short clubs and spades.

That sounds like a lot of chances to me.

Edit: just realized that Gnasher is probably not finessing the 8, but the Q instead, coming back to the hand if trump are 4-0, and then finessing again, forcing an honor. That's probably a better line after all.
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#20 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-May-18, 03:42

kenrexford, on May 17 2010, 03:32 PM, said:

Free, on May 17 2010, 08:59 AM, said:

This hand is not only about trumps...

♠A, and if no honour falls I continue with 3 rounds of ♣ trying to discard my ♦.

Interesting problem. If LHO has KJx and pops King, he then can force a ruff in dummy and promote his Jack.
~snip~

I probably misunderstand. But when would LHO pop his ♠K? Under the Ace? If he does, he'll still only make 1 ♠ trick, so contract made. :)
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