[pooltuna]

Jlall, on May 12 2010, 04:03 PM, said:

We are?

okay so we call 1♥ and now after 1NT gets passed around to us?

[Echognome]

I recall a reasonably old thread I created asking about whether an advance at the 1-level shows a 4- or 5-card suit. I believe the majority answer was 5-card suit is superior.

Gwnn to the rescue in finding the thread?

[gwnn]

Found this one where you mentioned the other one:

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=24913

trying to find the other one.

[Jlall]

Echognome, on May 12 2010, 05:03 PM, said:

I recall a reasonably old thread I created asking about whether an advance at the 1-level shows a 4- or 5-card suit. I believe the majority answer was 5-card suit is superior.

Gwnn to the rescue in finding the thread?

Part of it turned into semantics anyways iirc. I think everyone would bid 1S with KQJx Ax xxx xxxx but to me 1S is still a 5+ bid, and partner bids accordingly.

I definitely don't think it's like 1H p ? where we bid 1S with 4+ almost always.

pooltuna, sometimes I miss a 4-4 spade fit. It happens. I do pretty well on 5-3 fits though!

[655321]

gwnn, on May 12 2010, 06:24 PM, said:

Found this one where you mentioned the other one:

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=24913

trying to find the other one.

Found a few more:

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=11148
http://forums.bridge...showtopic=14509
http://forums.bridge...showtopic=19096

[Echognome]

Jlall, on May 12 2010, 06:50 PM, said:

Part of it turned into semantics anyways iirc.

Upon re-reading the thread I was thinking of ... I agree with this statement whole-heartedly!

[CSGibson]

This is a partnership discussion issue, IMO. I prefer thata major suit advance of an overcall only shows 4 and is forcing when made at the 1 level by an unpassed hand. Playing in a pick-up partnership, or a casual partnership without in depth agreements, however, I would bid 1N, which I believe shows 8-11 HCP and denies a 5 card spade suit.

As to the Hog's example 7 count, I would not overcall that hand opposite an unpassed partner, I prefer to have more constructive auctions in that situation, which are very much harder when a flat 7 count and a distributional 16 count would make the same initial call.

[Rodney26]

pooltuna, on May 12 2010, 04:46 PM, said:

Jlall, on May 12 2010, 04:03 PM, said:

We are?

okay so we call 1♥ and now after 1NT gets passed around to us?

Pool -- where are the opps on your construction? Are they really both passing with 9 diamonds and half the deck after opening 1D? I think you're presenting a problem with 1NT that can't really occur at the table.

[pooltuna]

Rodney26, on May 13 2010, 11:28 AM, said:

pooltuna, on May 12 2010, 04:46 PM, said:

Jlall, on May 12 2010, 04:03 PM, said:

We are?

okay so we call 1♥ and now after 1NT gets passed around to us?

Pool -- where are the opps on your construction? Are they really both passing with 9 diamonds and half the deck after opening 1D? I think you're presenting a problem with 1NT that can't really occur at the table.

Well let's try this hand

---

[hanp]

Pooltuna and HKarluk should start a hand construction club that meets elsewhere.

I would pass, second choice 1NT.

[pooltuna]

hanp, on May 13 2010, 02:14 PM, said:

Pooltuna and HKarluk should start a hand construction club that meets elsewhere.

I would pass, second choice 1NT.

But I am willing to be convinced by a simul that 1NT showing <5♠ is better than a 1♠ call in this situation

[mikeh]

I 'never' bid 1♠ on 4 cards here...I echo Justin on the possible exceptions. I can't say I have ever regretted it.

Partner's rarely hold 4=5 majors for an overcall...rare isn't never, so I lose out sometimes

LHO's sometimes rebid their minor or bid 2♣, having opened 1♦, after I bid 1♠ (or 1N) and it then becomes important for partner to have some assurance that I hold 5.

Indeed, it seems very useful, even with silent opps, for partner to know my minimum length is 5, since he will be 3=5 more often than 4=5, and raising with 3 opposite a possible 4 seems unnecessarily risky to me.

Note, this is not the same as the uncontested sequence 1♥  1♠  2♠: while this can be a moysian, the lower end of opener's strength is far higher than that for an overcaller.

I am leaving aside the collateral issue of whether 1♠ is forcing. I know a lot of fine players in each camp, tho I have always been a forcer myself.

[gwnn]

655321 is awesome @ searching. I think he's way better than me because I can mostly only look up threads that I remember. I wish he made a teaching table one afternoon and show us how he does it.

[vuroth]

Held this hand the other day

Scoring: MP

P P 1♦ 1♥
P ?

---

I passed, but would anyone bid 1♠ there? If not, what's the minimum for 1♠?

[pooltuna]

vuroth, on May 14 2010, 09:36 AM, said:

Held this hand the other day

Scoring: MP

P P 1♦ 1♥
P ?

---

I passed, but would anyone bid 1♠ there? If not, what's the minimum for 1♠?

I don't think you have enough ♠s to bid 1♠ and are therefore forced to choose between pass and 1NT I think even JLall might bid 1♠ here in spite of the fact that his partners NEVER overcall on a 4 card suit