[VixTD]

Does anyone have any advice for me on what's the best meaning for a double in the following situations:

1NT...(P)...2♣...(2♦/♥/♠)
..X

1NT...(P)...2♣...(2♦/♥/♠)
..P.....(P)......X

1NT is 12-14, 2♣ is Stayman (not promising a major). We play doubles of overcalls of our NT as penalty (don't try to convert me to playing takeout - it won't wash with my partners).

[helene_t]

I think it makes sense to play doubles of a red suit for penalties. With a 4-card suit in (the other) major, opener can just bid it.

As for the double on 2♠ I am not sure. It is probably best to play that as showing hearts, otherwise it becomes awkward when responder has an invitational hand that can't double 2♠.

But you might want to play it as penalties because the other doubles are. Anyway, if your partners insist that doubles of overcalls of 1NT are penalty then it will feel natural to play these doubles as penalty also.

[TylerE]

Imo opener's doubles are penaly and responders doubles are takeout/negative. No clue if that's standard. General rule is that doubles "over" the bidder are penalty and doubles under the bigger are takeout.

[rogerclee]

Penalty by both sides. The opponents stepped into an auction where you usually have values and have not found a fit.

[kfay]

TylerE, on May 7 2010, 01:18 PM, said:

Imo opener's doubles are penaly and responders doubles are takeout/negative. No clue if that's standard. General rule is that doubles "over" the bidder are penalty and doubles under the bigger are takeout.

I have a partner who always says this.

I don't get it.

[TylerE]

It's much more likely that you can extract a large (e.g. game beating) penalty (or beat it vs make a partscore) when your defensive trump honors are on declarers left, and much less likely to be finesseable.

[Gerben42]

My suggestion would be penalty in case of ♥ only.

if ♠: better to use as T/O showing ♥ as explained by Helene.
if ♦: opener cannot dbl with length as partner may be weak with both majors.

but if ♥:

I play almost all Dbl as T/O but cannot think of a reason why here Partner has ♥ or is strong, i.e. opener can dbl for penalty. Responder can also as he knows of partner's strength and 2+♥.

[andy_h]

I also play double by opener is penalties and double by responder is takeout/values but then again I play a strong NT. My 2♣ need not promise values so opener, who can see what trump tricks he's getting, can double for penalty. When opener cannot be sure if the contract will go down opposite minimum values opposite he can pass and if responder balances with a double thereby promising values, opener can now pass if he so wishes.

Playing a weak NT this would seem a bit different. It should also depend on what hands you are allowed to bid 2♣ with, like can it be garbage stayman or does it promise values.

[the hog]

If you play Garbage Stayman, then playing this double as penalties is very foolish indeed. If your stayman bids always show values, then I think the penalty option is a good one.
I would certainly prefer to play the x as takeout and catch the penalty x via a reopening x by partner.

[helene_t]

The_Hog, on May 9 2010, 03:00 AM, said:

If you play Garbage Stayman, then playing this double as penalties is very foolish indeed. If your stayman bids always show values, then I think the penalty option is a good one.
I would certainly prefer to play the x as takeout and catch the penalty x via a reopening x by partner.

If responder has a garbage hand he will have length in both majors. When opener doubles 2M for penalties (which will not happen often: we typically both have four cards in the suit opp bid at the 2-level!) he can just sit. When opener doubles 2♦ for penalties, responder (with a garbage hand) will either have a 3-suited hand that intended to pass a 2♦ response to Stayman, in which case he will be happy to sit (again, we have at least a 4-4 fit in the enemy suit), or he can bid 2M as he intended to do anyway.

I think playing t/o doubles on 2♦ is problematic if it just shows (43) in the majors: overcaller's partner may raise to 3♦ in which case it will be awkward. Maybe double should show 4-4 majors (or, alternatively, double shows hearts and denies spades so 2♥ would show 4-4 majors).

Responder can be in an awkward position with some invitational hands if double from him is penalties, especially if we play non-promissory Stayman. Say he bids 2♥ over opps 2♦. This should be a non-invitational (but not very weak) hand with 4-5 majors, I suppose. But it is also what he would like to bid with an invitational hand with four hearts that would have likes to double 2♦ for t/o. OTOH if dbl is penalty from opener but t/o from responder we can't penalize them when responder has four cards in their suit, and opener will rarely (ever?) be able to sit for responder's double which is kinda wasteful. And if responder has a hand with four small cards in their suit he is stuck if dbl is not penalty.

So I guess you just have to pick your poison.

[gordontd]

helene_t, on May 9 2010, 12:45 PM, said:

If responder has a garbage hand he will have length in both majors.

Or one major and a minor.

[CSGibson]

gordontd, on May 9 2010, 04:50 AM, said:

helene_t, on May 9 2010, 12:45 PM, said:

If responder has a garbage hand he will have length in both majors.

Or one major and a minor.

not the way most people play garbage stayman - they usually cannot get to the minor in that circumstances without making forcing bids if opener has the "wrong" major.

[the hog]

CSGibson, on May 10 2010, 01:45 AM, said:

gordontd, on May 9 2010, 04:50 AM, said:

helene_t, on May 9 2010, 12:45 PM, said:

If responder has a garbage hand he will have length in both majors.

Or one major and a minor.

not the way most people play garbage stayman - they usually cannot get to the minor in that circumstances without making forcing bids if opener has the "wrong" major.

I think you are wrong with this comment.

[CSGibson]

The_Hog, on May 9 2010, 04:15 PM, said:

CSGibson, on May 10 2010, 01:45 AM, said:

gordontd, on May 9 2010, 04:50 AM, said:

helene_t, on May 9 2010, 12:45 PM, said:

If responder has a garbage hand he will have length in both majors.

Or one major and a minor.

not the way most people play garbage stayman - they usually cannot get to the minor in that circumstances without making forcing bids if opener has the "wrong" major.

I think you are wrong with this comment.

The typical auctions are something like this - 1N-2♣, (2♥ or 2♠), now how do you correct to 3 of a minor? Most people, as far as I'm aware, play 2N as invitational, 3 of a minor as forcing at that point. Certainly most players in the BI section would usually play that way.

[helene_t]

I seem to recall that jdonn likes
1NT-2♣
2♥-2♠
as weak with four spades and a longer minor.

Also, in Henderson's book (which does not teach transfers), 2♣ includes a weak hand with clubs.

But this is certainly not standard. I am sure that Chris is right.

[the hog]

CSGibson, on May 10 2010, 08:56 AM, said:

The_Hog, on May 9 2010, 04:15 PM, said:

CSGibson, on May 10 2010, 01:45 AM, said:

gordontd, on May 9 2010, 04:50 AM, said:

helene_t, on May 9 2010, 12:45 PM, said:

If responder has a garbage hand he will have length in both majors.

Or one major and a minor.

not the way most people play garbage stayman - they usually cannot get to the minor in that circumstances without making forcing bids if opener has the "wrong" major.

I think you are wrong with this comment.

The typical auctions are something like this - 1N-2♣, (2♥ or 2♠), now how do you correct to 3 of a minor? Most people, as far as I'm aware, play 2N as invitational, 3 of a minor as forcing at that point. Certainly most players in the BI section would usually play that way.

Well maybe they do. However a lot of people also play
1NT 2C 2S 3m as a weak bid with 4H and a long minor
How else would you bid
xx Qxxx x Jxxxxx

[helene_t]

With that hand, responder can just bid 2♣ when opener doubles 2♠ for penalties, as he intended to do over a 2♠ response.