[the hog]

Nil vul MPs

K52
A
KQJ
AQT865


P ( P) 1C (1H)
P ( P) X (P)
P ( 1S) ?

I am curious about this hand from a recent bidding forum.
After a somewhat convoluted auction, where your passed partner also made a penalty pass of a t/o x of 1H, it is now your bid over 1S.

1) Is pass forcing here? I think it should be, but....

2) Assuming you are not sure if pass is forcing, what would you bid? Would your bids be different if the vul were different?

[jdonn]

I don't think pass is forcing. Maybe it should be on the 1 level but we could be minimum and there's no reason partner needs much of anything besides a heart stack either. Like he could have xx KJT9x xxxx xx and will certainly want to pass out 1♠ if he can.

Since I don't think pass is forcing I obviously can't pass. I'm not going to double with this much extra shape and only 3 spades either. I'll try 3♣, at least it's easy to understand and though I'm a bit heavy this hand isn't worth as much as its point count anyway imo.

Since I'm never doubling here the vul doesn't make much difference to me.

[Jlall]

not forcing, and I'd bid 2H.

[the hog]

jdonn, on May 5 2010, 08:02 AM, said:

snipped

Like he could have xx KJT9x xxxx xx and will certainly want to pass out 1♠ if he can.

snipped

Quick reply.
Would this hand not be a weak 2 opening? I guess the answer to that is how aggressive you play your weak 2s

[jdonn]

The_Hog, on May 4 2010, 08:06 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 5 2010, 08:02 AM, said:

snipped

Like he could have xx KJT9x xxxx xx and will certainly want to pass out 1♠ if he can.

snipped

Quick reply.
Would this hand not be a weak 2 opening? I guess the answer to that is how aggressive you play your weak 2s

It's important to be fast lol.

Well it's not a weak 2 opening for me, but even if it is in your style I'm sure you can think of penalty passes of 1♥ that aren't weak 2 openings but still want to pass out 1♠. And in any case I'd rather not base the forcing nature of this auction on whether or not partner is a passed hand.

[dburn]

Nor would I, but one needs to make some allowance for partner's passed-hand status. For example, if I thought my opponents might make one spade facing a passed-hand penalty pass of a double of one heart, and that our side could make no higher contract, why would I double them in one heart?

For that reason I would regard pass here as forcing. I would not pass even so (and nor would I bid 2♥, because partner might well pass that and it might not be our side's best spot). Put me with jdonn in the 3♣ department.

[Jlall]

If we just bid 2C here, we could have a 3136 11 count. As such we have to bid 3C with something like 16 and sometimes 15 (basically whatever you would rebid 3C with probably). So I don't really get 3C with a hand this good.

[aguahombre]

I don't think the eleven count 3-1-3-6 should double on the second round. But I guess if we must double each and every time --lest we miss an occasional 1-level penalty, then the 2C and 3C third-round bids are weaker than this hand.

double of 1H, then a jump to 3C, is a damned good hand in my world.

[jdonn]

Am I crazy? I would think 3136 11 count is an auto pass over 1♠.

[MarkDean]

I do not think pass is forcing.
I would bid 3♣ now.

[mike777]

The_Hog, on May 4 2010, 07:58 PM, said:

Nil vul MPs

K52
A
KQJ
AQT865


P ( P)  1C  (1H)
P  ( P)  X    (P)
P  ( 1S)    ?

I am curious about this hand from a recent bidding forum.
After a somewhat convoluted auction, where your passed partner also made a penalty pass of a t/o x of 1H, it is now your bid over 1S.

1) Is pass forcing here? I think it should be, but....

2) Assuming you are not sure if pass is forcing, what would you bid? Would your bids be different if the vul were different?

3c



I hope this shows alot of clubs and alot of points.....

but less than 2c opener

[aguahombre]

I hope so, too. My partner thinks so.

[Codo]

Justin in a small minority - of one. What a seldom occurance.

I join the chorus and bid 3 ♣.

[Jlall]

Codo, on May 5 2010, 03:15 AM, said:

Justin in a small minority - of one. What a seldom occurance.

Haha, happens more often in real life/the post mortem

[the hog]

Ok the reason I asked this question is that I have a problem with the scores assigned.

Pass 100
3C 80
2NT 70
Dbl 60
1NT 50
2S 40
3NT 30
2C 20
2H 10
Other 0

As you can see, pass was the top score and assumed to be forcing. I wasn't so sure. Larry Cohen and Bob Jones said clearly forcing, but based on the comments here maybe it shouldn't be.
2H, Justin's choice, scored badly, and I think that is unfair.
Fwiw, my choice was 3NT. Why? "Here we are nv, partner has not opened with a weak 2 bid first in hand and yet has made a penalty pass of a one level overcall. Partner's H have to be headed by 5 to the QJ or KQ, and given the failure to open a weak 2, probably the former. Pd probably should have another card to justify the penalty pass. My C suit is reasonably good and based on this and my estimation of partner's holding, I am bidding 3NT." Well, that didn't score brilliantly either. I guess my reasoning is based on what I know my partner would hold, and not on a bidding forum.
2S is absurd in my view, yet that got 40.

I guess 3C is the best, though that could go for a number.

[Jlall]

edit: Wrong thread, need to stop drinking

I should probably bid 2S rather than 2H given that I'm cuebidding. I think cuebidding is much better than just bidding 3N since it will often be imperative to play NT from partner's side (Qx of spades for example).

[jdonn]

I certainly prefer 2NT to 3NT (and isn't 1NT grossly overrated in the scores?) I have a hard time thinking we are likely to miss game if partner passes a 2NT bid. We have a stiff ace opposite the only indication of strength in partner's hand and no idea if there is an entry to lead toward the clubs, not to mention to take any heart tricks over there.

And if you are going to bid 2NT you might as well bid 3♣, which seems similar on values but is obviously safer if passed.

[rhm]

The_Hog, on May 5 2010, 03:33 AM, said:

Ok the reason I asked this question is that I have a problem with the scores assigned.

Pass 100
3C  80
2NT  70
Dbl  60
1NT  50
2S    40
3NT  30
2C  20
2H  10
Other 0

As you can see, pass was the top score and assumed to be forcing. I wasn't so sure. Larry Cohen and Bob Jones said clearly forcing, but based on the comments here maybe it shouldn't be.
2H, Justin's choice, scored badly, and I think that is unfair.
Fwiw, my choice was 3NT. Why? "Here we are nv, partner has not opened with a weak 2 bid first in hand and yet has made a penalty pass of a one level overcall. Partner's H have to be headed by 5 to the QJ or KQ, and given the failure to open a weak 2, probably the former. Pd probably should have another card to justify the penalty pass. My C suit is reasonably good and based on this and my estimation of partner's holding, I am bidding 3NT." Well, that didn't score brilliantly either. I guess my reasoning is based on what I know my partner would hold, and not on a bidding forum.
2S is absurd in my view, yet that got 40.

I guess 3C is the best, though that could go for a number.

Why is 2♠ absurd?
What hand would now bid 2♠ bid in your opinion?
Some have hinted that the hand might be a bit strong for a jump to 3♣.
If we assume that a penalty pass of a 1 level overcall shows some values, I agree.
2♠ is the only clear force at this point (without any specific agreements), different to Pass or 2♥ and must show a desire to reach game.
Since you did not reverse into ♦ and your major suit lengths must be limited (no double of 1♠) it must show a good ♣ suit among your goodies.
If an expert partner bids 3♣ over 2♠, I would give up, because with the ♣ King I would expect him to bid 3♠ and with something in ♠ I would expect him to bid 2NT or 3NT.
Granted that this is all not carved in stone, but if we assume an expert partnership it looks logical to me.

Since 2♠ is forcing, you can always bid 3NT thereafter and 3NT might be better from partner's side if he happens to hold something in ♠ like Qx, which is not unlikely. (♠ is likely your weak spot in a 3NT contract)

2♠ was my choice and it did not fare well either.
My guess is that not many (like you) even thought about the 2♠ bid and what it implies and that's why it probably did not score well.
I do not know why it is absurd though. It seems clearly superior to a direct jump to 3NT.

Rainer Herrmann

[whereagles]

I would definitely try 3♣ here, though agree pass can easily be right.

[hanp]

I think that 2S is clearly clearer than 2H.