[serapuff]

655321, on Apr 22 2010, 11:26 PM, said:

I would play the 8 to discourage, but on this hand I can't see why it matters.

Partner has ♥AK and ♣KQ, declarer has the rest of the high cards.
So declarer is likely to draw trumps, and I am struggling to think of a layout where the club we play makes a difference. Did declarer show a 4 card spade suit? If declarer is 4342 with the ♣10 he can play a club, or if declarer as expected has ♥QJ he can pitch dummy's diamonds on the hearts and make 10 tricks, etc. Even if declarer has fewer than 4 spades and we encourage clubs, and partner somehow gets in, why wouldn't he play a diamond regardless of which club we played?

I guess, the question here is still whether the card you play shows count or attitude.

Is attitude obvious? (I.e you clearly do not want this suit continued, so it can't be attitude?)

Is suit preference obvious? (Dummy has a singleton and you probably *won't* want a H return)

[jjbrr]

serapuff, on Apr 22 2010, 08:06 PM, said:

jjbrr, on Apr 22 2010, 10:43 PM, said:

2 is an even number, last time I checked.

Yup - playing udca, 2 will be the card to show count

No, you missed the point. It would be a disaster if partner played you for a doubleton club. This is the problem with playing count.

If you play attitude here, you only encourage with a doubleton and discourage with more than a doubleton. Partner is very, very rarely going to need to know whether you have 3 or 4 clubs, but he will almost always need to know if you have 2 or 4. This ambiguity is just not necessary, and it's going to cost a lot when partner guesses wrong.

If you play attitude, you get the benefit of being able to show the only count relevant to partner without any ambiguity.

[655321]

serapuff, on Apr 22 2010, 10:10 PM, said:

I guess, the question here is still whether the card you play shows count or attitude.

Is attitude obvious? (I.e you clearly do not want this suit continued, so it can't be attitude?)

Is suit preference obvious? (Dummy has a singleton and you probably *won't* want a H return)

That's easy. A fast 2 shows a doubleton, and a slow 2 is suit preference.

Oh wait...

[Tomi2]

why should this be a eng/disc situation, all honors in this suit are clear to every player at the table including the dummy. Partner is not on lead anymore, if he ever gains the lead, he will have another singnal from me, this will be a suit preference. Then he will have the full count, because I give him the count singal and see that I have something in dias other than hearts.
If I play the 8, pd will misjudge the whole layout by one card. Since he should have the Cl 10 as well for his defense, I won't think, that he will try to give me a ruff on a natural trick. At some point he will switch to dias anyway but I want to show him now how to handle the club suit, once he regains the lead, leads a dia to me and I return a club

[dredog03]

What if partner doesn't have the ♣Q? I mean, if he has it, he will know to lead a diamond next time he is in for fear of setting up dummy's jack, and it's hard to see how count can be important to him. From the auction, you could very well have only the ♥J and a minor suit Q in high cards. He needs to know it's not the ♣Q.

[Fluffy]

Nice point Tomi I play echo in trumps shows interest in ruffing so in theory I should be ok playing the 2, still I'd play the 8 lieing to partner.

[serapuff]

So, it turned out pd had:


kxx
AKxxx
xxx
kx

After winning KH, pd figured that the only way to set the contract was if I had qC and he gets a ruff (it seemed improbable I have 2 diamond honors based on the HCP) - and I fully agree with his analysis.

It turned out, a D switch when he got in with kS was necessary to set the contract, as declarer played qH discarding a diamond in dummy losing to partner's AH, and jH tossed the last D loser for just making.

[rhm]

serapuff, on Apr 25 2010, 05:36 PM, said:

So, it turned out pd had:


kxx
AKxxx
xxx
kx

After winning KH, pd figured that the only way to set the contract was if I had qC and he gets a ruff (it seemed improbable I have 2 diamond honors based on the HCP) - and I fully agree with his analysis.

It turned out, a D switch when he got in with kS was necessary to set the contract, as declarer played qH discarding a diamond in dummy losing to partner's AH, and jH tossed the last D loser for just making.

A competent declarer would have played hearts before trumps.

Rainer Herrmann

[jjbrr]

Tomi2, on Apr 23 2010, 04:05 AM, said:

why should this be a eng/disc situation, all honors in this suit are clear to every player at the table including the dummy.

o rly?

[dake50]

What is not known by partner?
Opening lead -> not top heart; CK to CA -> all club honors are seen; I raised ->D-stuff; Spades are as they are(SK on/off). What does attitude add?
Count at least adds CQ cashes/not.

Granted not many partnerships discuss 'what is not known?' for their signaling scheme exceptions. Just applying simple rules saves memory.

[Tomi2]

pd's defense looks strange, leading away from kx into a j9xx suit... this is not his work, its opps work. Would have expected him to switch to dia and wait for a club and a spade trick...
anyway showing count and then suipt pref in trumps would have even worked with this partner