[gordontd]

Scoring: MP

1S - 2C - 3S - 4C
4S - P - P - ?

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What do you call? What else do you consider? Does partner's overcalling style affect your decision?

I was asked about this, and gave a different answer from that of two of my most senior colleagues, so I'm interested to hear what others think.

This post has been edited by gordontd: 2010-April-15, 09:14

[jvage]

I would double. Since we have already bid 4♣ partner will maybe at least some of the time take out into 5♣ when it's correct. Also this is MP, we may have to protect our +130 from 4♣, in that case +100 may not be a very good score. Third, if 4♠ makes it may be a bad score even undoubled. Of course 4♠ will sometimes make and the double lead to a bottom, but then I just blame it on the MP-scoring

Since this is posted here I guess part of the question is wether or not pass is a Logical Alternative (sorry Gordon, but it's almost impossible to get "neutral" votes posting in this forum...). I would guess that it is, but a neutral poll would be the best way to determine this. It may also depend on style for the 2♣ overcall.

John

[helene_t]

dbl, I don't think there is any LA.

We have two aces which we haven't shown. The board probably belongs to us but partner does not know.

[Codo]

Double after considering the alternatives. It is impossible to choose double without thinking about passing and 5 club, but I would always and all days double with such a hand and it is not close.

[StevenG]

Double if partner's overcalls are sound. Pass if they are not, when 4♠ is likely to be the normal contract.

[cherdanno]

Huh? Double! I have never seen an overcall style where double wouldn't be obvious.

[655321]

What would a player do now who thinks that 4♣ was enough last time? I can't answer that question.

Anyway, obviously pass is not a LA, the decision is between 5♣ and double.

[gwnn]

These are trap questions, you have to ask 1 million players, find the 10 or 15 that would bid 4C and then decide on that basis... I don't like relying on people who would have never bid 4C, they do not understand the fine inner workings of the special few.

Anyway, how many aces did the pass of 4S show?

[greenender]

I don't think you have to be as extreme as that. Clearly a player who would never have considered 4♣ on the previous round is not a member of the peer group for the purposes of assessing logical alternatives, but most people can put themselves in the position of someone who has made what they consider to be an inferior call on a previous round, and express a valid opinion for polling purposes.

So I think the TD when polling should say something about the earlier auction, along the lines of: "you're stuck with the earlier auction: if you really can't envisage being in this position because you wouldn't have bid like this so far, then let me know".

I might well have bid 4♣ myself, and can certainly live with it. I would now double and would not seriously consider any other call. I made my decision as to the right level for ♣s on the last round, for better or worse, and it is not carefully taking no advantage to reconsider that decision in the teeth of UI. I cannot envisage passing. I have much better defence than I might have, and partner has made an overcall at the 2-level.

[StevenG]

We are not told the jurisdiction or the class of players. I'm assuming EBU, because it's Gordon who posted it.

Nothing has been said about the 3♠ bid. Was it alerted? At club level in the EBU, most ordinary Acol players still play it as invitation after an intervention, and, as a result, the OB says that a preemptive raise in this situation is alertable. So, whether ot not 3♠ is alerted makes a huge difference as to how I evaluate my hand.

[Vampyr]

StevenG, on Apr 15 2010, 04:16 PM, said:

OB says that a preemptive raise in this situation is alertable. 

Many players will not know this though. I know it, and I must confess that I have from time to time forgotten to alert.

[peachy]

Dbl. Overcall style really does not matter. If it is sound and disciplined, great - we beat them more. If it is undisciplined or does not promise a good hand and a good suit, great - we can't make anything on the five level while they can't make 4S. If partner pulls [he shouldn't unless he thinks we getter a bigger plus declaring], I am raising to six.

[jallerton]

Of course the overcalling style affects the likely defensive prospects against 4♠, as well as the prospects for making 5♣.

In this problem, we can assume that the overcaller has a light overcalling style fom the fact that Advancer bid only 4♣ on the first round.

[jdonn]

4♣ huh...

[peachy]

jallerton, on Apr 15 2010, 04:07 PM, said:

Of course the overcalling style affects the likely defensive prospects against 4♠, as well as the prospects for making 5♣.

In this problem, we can assume that the overcaller has a light overcalling style fom the fact that Advancer bid only 4♣ on the first round.

You are right, the evidence (if we trust the 4C bidder) seems to indicate their overcalling style is not sound. I still double.

[jeremy69]

I would double even if I thought partner overcalled on less than the average. I also think the previous choice of 4C has come in for too much derision.

[gordontd]

At the table there was a slow pass over 4♠ and the South hand bid 5♣.

When I was asked my opinion by text I said I would double, and I said I didn't think pass was an LA. The director polled various players in the event and none of them would have passed. On further reflection I thought that bidding 5♣ was suggested over doubling, but the director thought that North would pull a double to 5♣.

So, effectively, I think the ruling was to adjust from 5♣ bid by South, to 5♣ bid by North after South doubles and so the score remained the same.

[wank]

though i consider acting automatic i consider 5C to be laughable. 4C then 5C? stick him with a PP then correct the result to 5C by his partner. that will at least be amusing.

[bluejak]

Vampyr, on Apr 15 2010, 06:10 PM, said:

StevenG, on Apr 15 2010, 04:16 PM, said:

OB says that a preemptive raise in this situation is alertable. 

Many players will not know this though. I know it, and I must confess that I have from time to time forgotten to alert.

Agreed, but knowing that people do not know what to alert means I often ask this sequence. So, was it asked and what was the answer?

wank, on Apr 17 2010, 03:03 PM, said:

though i consider acting automatic i consider 5C to be laughable. 4C then 5C?  stick him with a PP then correct the result to 5C by his partner.  that will at least be amusing.

This not just amusing: if South is experienced it is clearly the correct answer.