[mgoetze]

JoAnneM, on Apr 14 2010, 08:29 PM, said:

What I really hate is "WTP". It is amazing how many answers there are, and with good explanations. I would double and then be thrilled when partner bids spades. Or I will either bid clubs or nt depending.......

Sorry... just so happens I learned that double then bid a new suit shows you didn't have a takeout shape after all, and this hand is obviously too strong to bid 3♣. Apparently, there are some people who play that double is always for takeout no matter what you bid subsequently. I wonder how they bid certain other hands but oh well...

[the hog]

Pass is out of the question at this vulnerability. There are 3 options imo, 3NT, 3C and double. That is the order in which I rate them.

[mike777]

thebiker, on Apr 14 2010, 07:13 AM, said:

IMP Vul versus NVul

Dealer opens 2D weak

Your hand
♠KT9x
♥-
♦AKxx
♣AKQxx

Your move ?

regards

thebiker

Brian Keable

x

No problem yet


as usual cuebid or x with a tough forum hand......

[dburn]

Would double at the table, and try not to look anguished. Can't imagine bidding 3♣. Can just about imagine bidding 3NT, but would hate myself in the morning.

Not ashamed to say that even if I had ♠KQ109 and ♣AKxxx, 4♣ (clubs and a major) would never have occurred to me even though it is a great bid, and the reason people like Chip Martel win big tournaments while people like me watch them do it.

Still, more good things can happen after double than can happen after anything else. Imagine partner with ♠AQxxx and out. The 3NT bidders will lose the first six or seven heart tricks. The 3♣ bidders will be plus 190 if they can draw trump and ruff a diamond or two in dummy. Chip will be plus 710 in 4♠, winning 14 IMPs against the 3NT guys and 11 against the 3♣ guys, but losing 17 to the doublers who play in 7♠.

And if partner has only hearts? Well, maybe we can still end in 3NT. If we don't - what would we have ended up in if we had chosen some other action? Maybe in the real world I doubled, partner jumped to 4♥ and went for 1100 while at the other table 3♣ made exactly. But maybe not.

[Jlall]

dburn, on Apr 15 2010, 10:42 PM, said:

Not ashamed to say that even if I had ♠KQ109 and ♣AKxxx, 4♣ (clubs and a major) would never have occurred to me even though it is a great bid, and the reason people like Chip Martel win big tournaments while people like me watch them do it.

Not at all why Chip Martel wins tournaments and others don't

[mike777]

Chip Martel?

Ok I bite why does he win? whatever, whoever he is

[helene_t]

mgoetze, on Apr 15 2010, 11:09 PM, said:

JoAnneM, on Apr 14 2010, 08:29 PM, said:

What I really hate is "WTP".    It is amazing how many answers there are, and with good explanations.  I would double and then be thrilled when partner bids spades. Or I will either bid clubs or nt depending.......

Sorry... just so happens I learned that double then bid a new suit shows you didn't have a takeout shape after all, and this hand is obviously too strong to bid 3♣. Apparently, there are some people who play that double is always for takeout no matter what you bid subsequently. I wonder how they bid certain other hands but oh well...

Nobody is saying that double always shows a classic take-out shape. Double followed by 3♣ does not show 4315 - that hand would cuebid over partner's 2♥ bid. A doubleton in the major partner bids is normal and partner will try to avoid bidding a 5-card suit twice unless our next call is a cuebid. Double followed by 3♣ is typically 4216, 3226 or 3316.

Still, IMHO, you should try to avoid making take-out doubles with a singleton in an unbid major, and certainly with a void. Partner will probably insist on hearts if he has 6 of them. He might also bid hearts twice with xxxx-QJTxx-xxx-x but due to our diamond length that shape is not so likely.

Another problem with this hand is that we only have five clubs. It is not like we are excited about partner passing our 3♣ bid with a 4522 bust. But OK, that is a minor issue compared to the risks of bidding 2NT or 3NT with a void.

[Jlall]

Helene, I think 4315 would often bid 3C imo, it is a non forcing bid so it can be passed and be the right spot. If I was too strong for that then I would cuebid with that shape.

[helene_t]

Thanks, Justin. Interesting. If p has 4♥2♣ then cuebid will take us to the 4-3 heart fit with the diamond shortness with the short trumps, I think that is slightly better than a 5-2 clubs fit, but of course the clubs fit could also be 5-3 or 5-4.

[hanp]

I would also double, 3NT second choice. 4C also would not have occurred to me but it is an entertaining idea.

As impossible as this hand might be, I think that the 3C bidders are from a different planet and the passers have the vulnerability the wrong way around. 2NT is just an underbid and is therefore clearly inferior to 3NT imo, I don't really understand why one would bid 2NT.

[Phil]

I've never made a leaping Michaels call with a 4-5, but I did it once with a 4♠-6♦, over 2♥ which worked out very poorly. Pard took the Moysian preference to 4M with 3-3 in my suits so 5m would have made but 4♠ was terrible as the hand got tapped immediately.

I still like x.

[pirate22]

No one has a system-----------But one has to take action-No one has said PASS over 2d and await developements so x is 2/3/4 best
I rest our case

[Jlall]

hanp, on Apr 16 2010, 06:49 AM, said:

2NT is just an underbid and is therefore clearly inferior to 3NT imo, I don't really understand why one would bid 2NT.

2N gives partner room for stayman/smolen/transfers so it makes it much more likely to find a spade fit.

On the other hand, 2N seems like a misbid with a void in a major suit and you're gonna hear texas in hearts a lot imo.

[ONEferBRID]

JanM, on Apr 15 2010, 11:05 AM, said:

But then he suggested something no one has advocated - 4♣, showing 5-5 in clubs and a Major. Overstates the spades, of course, but at least it gets across that this is a 2-suited hand. Means we won't be able to play 3NT, but it's not going to be easy to get to 3NT, and will be pretty impossible to get there and know it's right.

You still have a 3NT option available using a modified Roman-Jump over a weak-2D open when you want to show a specific Major and Cl -- big 2-suiter :

??
3D! = stop-ask for 3NT
3H-jump! = Hts and Cl ( partner can still bid 3NT )
3S-jump! = Sp and Cl ( " )
4D!-jump = both Majors

[thebiker]

Here is the hand opposite the problem hand

2D ? P ??

♠QXX
♥987XXX
♦X
♣TXX

Both auctions started with a double
Both tables ended up in 4H -4 . -200 at one table, -1100 at another

3NT would not make once defence worked out to switch to hearts

Spades were 5-1 with a singleton J in the 2D hand

Thank you all for your suggestions/theories - A very difficult hand not just for the players at the table, but many others at their keyboards

the biker

Brian Keable

[rbforster]

3♣ - going plus

[gwnn]

++++ woo hoo

nah x should also go + btw

[P_Marlowe]

X, followed by a club bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Phil]

Seems:

(2♦) - x - (p) - 2♥'


then:

3♣ - 3♥
3♠ - 4♣
(pass?)

is a reasonable auction.

[jjbrr]

agree.